08:03:17 <robertl_> #startmeeting
08:03:17 <maharameet> Meeting started Thu Apr 23 08:03:17 2015 UTC.  The chair is robertl_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:03:17 <maharameet> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:03:25 <robertl_> #info Welcome to the 43rd Mahara developer meeting. Please introduce yourself using #info at the start of the line so that we know who's attending today / tonight.
08:03:30 <robertl_> #info robertl_ is Robert Lyon, Catalyst IT in Wellington, NZ
08:03:32 <anitsirk> #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner at Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:03:47 <mingard> #info mingard is Jono Mingard, Catalyst IT, Wellington NZ
08:04:12 <aarowlaptop> #info aarowlaptop is Aaron Wells at Catalyst IT, Wgtn NZ
08:04:24 <aarowlaptop> Hi Jono
08:04:34 <anitsirk> hehe. we could have a f2f meeting in the office tomorrow instead. ;-)
08:04:41 <robertl_> lol
08:04:53 <mingard> but this is tradition
08:05:26 <anitsirk> well, somebody would have to write the meeting notes in maharabot fashion of course. ;-)
08:06:01 <robertl_> #topic Items from last meeting
08:06:01 <robertl_> #info robertl_ to create bugs / wishlist items for improving the HTML export.
08:06:01 <robertl_> I've still done naught on this due to getting the 15.04 release out and doing the security releases - hopefully in the next few days I'll have headspace to create bug reports and add them to the blueprint
08:06:23 <robertl_> so hopefully will have it sorted by next meeting
08:06:44 <anitsirk> And I forgot to ask Yuliya about progress with Launchpad when I saw her last week.
08:06:46 <robertl_> #action robert_ to get it done by next meeting
08:06:59 <robertl_> #info yuliyabozhko1 will try to contact Launchpad and check if there is a way to get a custom language code set up.
08:07:11 <robertl_> as she's not here it'll need to be held over
08:07:20 <anitsirk> yup
08:07:30 <robertl_> which brings us to
08:07:32 <robertl_> #info Everyone: Review the possible options for the official mahara code repository that aarowlaptop mentioned and weight advantages and disadvantages.
08:07:44 <robertl_> I believe we have a plan for this now
08:08:10 <robertl_> someone else feel free to address this
08:08:18 <mingard> ok, what is the plan?
08:08:19 <anitsirk> #idea the best plan will be to set up our own repository (for the time being on a Catalyst server)
08:08:35 <anitsirk> that way, we can have a permanent url like git.mahara.org
08:08:44 <mingard> cool, sounds good
08:08:51 <anitsirk> and not be dependent on any other service being here for a while and then being gone
08:09:05 <anitsirk> and if a service goes away, we don't have to frantically update all our hooks etc.
08:09:32 <mingard> true. would be nice to have a pretty frontend though
08:09:32 <anitsirk> it's been a bit of a mission to get the package done again for the user manual, but it should be faster when we move to the final repository.
08:09:44 <robertl_> I'm wondering if we can have some proxy in the way so that it can check against more than one place the repo lives and server it even if one is down
08:09:56 <anitsirk> for the time being, i had moved all our repositories to git.nzoss.org for savekeeping and for updating the user manual since gitorious didn't want to play nice.
08:10:11 <anitsirk> #idea It's still the idea to use Gitlab for that
08:10:35 <anitsirk> just self-host it.
08:10:42 <mingard> ok :)
08:11:10 <anitsirk> robertl_: the cloud will manage ;-)
08:11:50 <robertl_> me thinking more that overseas folks cant reach nz server so could get it from us server
08:12:09 <aarowlaptop> Well, we'll still be replicating to github
08:12:47 <robertl_> fair enough
08:13:27 <anitsirk> so if there are no objections, i'll get the ball rolling for the install of GitLab.
08:13:45 <robertl_> sounds good
08:14:05 <robertl_> #action anitsirk to get GitLab ball rolling
08:14:25 <robertl_> ok next up ...
08:14:26 <robertl_> #topic Mahara 15.04 release
08:14:57 <anitsirk> #info I just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to Mahara 15.04. It's been a great release again. Congratulations around the world.
08:15:39 <anitsirk> people love the "Copy" button on a page.
08:15:39 <robertl_> It's good to get the first release out on the new numbering
08:16:17 <robertl_> good to hear
08:16:24 <anitsirk> That shows that small changes like that can have a big impact for the usability. :-)
08:16:25 <mingard> great
08:16:34 <anitsirk> so well done, robertl_
08:16:46 <robertl_> and so far the only bugs that have been reported have been ones we've found :)
08:17:26 <robertl_> thanks to all that contributed - it was a team effort
08:17:40 <anitsirk> # info speaking of bugs: A critical one found in 15.04 concerns MNet. If you are using Mahara with MNet, please wait until 15.04.1 is out as that fixes a critical session bug.
08:17:49 <anitsirk> #info speaking of bugs: A critical one found in 15.04 concerns MNet. If you are using Mahara with MNet, please wait until 15.04.1 is out as that fixes a critical session bug.
08:18:32 <robertl_> ok next topic
08:18:34 <robertl_> #topic reviews.mahara.org server has been upgraded, Gerrit version will be upgraded soon
08:18:49 <aarowlaptop> yep
08:18:50 <robertl_> aarowlaptop, one of yours
08:19:15 <robertl_> will there be any exciting things in the new gerrit?
08:19:31 <aarowlaptop> #info We've been trying to upgrade reviews.mahara.org to a later version of gerrit for several months now. The blocker was that newer Gerrit versions require Java 1.7, and hudrit was running Ubuntu 10.04 which only supported Java 1.6
08:19:52 <aarowlaptop> #info Today we've migrated reviews.mahara.org to a new server. In the next couple of days I'll upgrade the gerrit version.
08:20:15 <aarowlaptop> #info If you connect to gerrit for git, you'll need to clear out the old SSH host info from your known_hosts file
08:20:56 <aarowlaptop> That's pretty much it
08:21:04 <aarowlaptop> I haven't really looked into the features of the new Gerrit
08:21:50 <robertl_> it would be good to check that there will not be any gotchas with the new gerrit and current workflow
08:21:58 <mingard> looking at the official android code review it doesn't seem much different
08:22:01 <mingard> but yeah definitely
08:22:12 <mingard> check the git hooks are still valid and so on
08:22:42 <robertl_> though if we are doing the upgrade at begin of release cycle it will be less stressful if things are different
08:22:50 <aarowlaptop> True
08:22:56 <robertl_> than close to a release
08:23:05 <aarowlaptop> There are some new odds and ends. You can see it by looking at the Catalyst elearning gerrit, for instance
08:23:24 <robertl_> right
08:23:50 <robertl_> #action aarowlaptop to upgrade reviews gerrit soon
08:24:09 <robertl_> next one...
08:24:11 <robertl_> #topic Updating "Server OS" on the system requirements page to Ubuntu 12.04 and Debian 7
08:24:39 <mingard> is debian 6 also out of support / not worth supporting?
08:25:09 <aarowlaptop> As far as I'm aware, Debian 7 is the only version currently receiving updates
08:25:33 <mingard> so it is, debian 6 expired about a year ago
08:25:48 <mingard> officially
08:25:58 <mingard> but LTS is continuing
08:26:28 <aarowlaptop> good to know. Where's the info about that, mingard?
08:26:41 <mingard> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
08:27:01 <aarowlaptop> I'm really not that familiar with Debian versioning
08:27:26 <aarowlaptop> okay, so LTS for debian 6 continues until Feb 2015
08:27:32 <mingard> 2016
08:27:44 <aarowlaptop> that's what I meant ;)
08:27:52 <mingard> ok ;) but it's experimental and community based
08:27:54 <aarowlaptop> Let's keep it on the supported Server OS's page then
08:28:01 <aarowlaptop> oh yeah?
08:28:29 <mingard> 3rd para - "Debian-LTS will not be handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies interested in making it a success (with some overlap in people involved)."
08:28:32 <aarowlaptop> What version of PHP does Debian 6 have?
08:28:47 <robertl_> well we are community based too - so that's not all that bad :)
08:28:54 <aarowlaptop> Just to jump ahead to the next bullet item. ;) I'd like to drop support for PHP 5.3
08:29:08 <mingard> ubuntu 12.04 still includes it
08:30:05 <aarowlaptop> does it?
08:30:07 <aarowlaptop> boo
08:30:12 <robertl_> it looks like 5.3.3 in Debian 6
08:30:42 <aarowlaptop> yeah
08:30:44 <aarowlaptop> same for 12.04
08:30:53 <mingard> you can upgrade 12.04 to php 5.5 with a ppa but still ...
08:30:58 <aarowlaptop> yep
08:31:07 <aarowlaptop> maybe we should base our supported OS'es on which ones ship 5.4 then
08:31:39 <anitsirk> are there any dependencies for bootstrap that might make that decision easier?
08:31:47 <robertl_> ok, so what's the reason for ditching PHP 5.3 ?
08:31:59 <robertl_> #topic Should we raise Mahara 15.10 minimum supported PHP version to 5.4, or 5.5?
08:32:23 * robertl_ guess the action for last topic will be based on answering this one
08:32:31 <mingard> if we really don't want 5.4 then we would probably have to require 14.04 which contains php 5.5
08:32:39 <mingard> sorry 5.3
08:32:46 <aarowlaptop> yep
08:32:59 <aarowlaptop> Primarily the reason is because PHP 5.3 has been end-of-life since last August
08:33:11 <robertl_> that is a very good reason :)
08:33:40 <anitsirk> that's quite a radical step seeing that 12.04 is still supported for a number of years and universities tend to be slow in upgrading.
08:33:40 <aarowlaptop> also PHP 5.4 does offer miscellaneous new features. I can't think of any in particular right now, but I have run into a few situations where life would be easier if I could use a PHP 5.4 feature
08:34:10 <aarowlaptop> One thing that strengthens our case here is that Moodle has been requiring PHP 5.4 for a while now
08:34:20 <robertl_> Debian wheezy comes with 5.4
08:34:37 <anitsirk> oh true. so many will already have to be on 5.4 anyway
08:34:51 <mingard> i do wonder why 12.04 hasn't upgraded
08:35:21 <robertl_> and Debian jessie will be on 5.6 when it comes out
08:35:36 * robertl_ wonders when that will be
08:35:53 * mingard and aarow don't understand debian's release schedule
08:36:29 <aarowlaptop> heh, yep
08:36:42 <robertl_> ah it's at the end of this week
08:36:47 <aarowlaptop> Well, PHP has recently stepped up their major release schedule
08:36:50 <aarowlaptop> in much the same way as Moodle
08:37:02 <robertl_> 25 April 2015 estimated release date
08:37:04 <aarowlaptop> that's why it feels like we're going through PHP versions rapidly now
08:37:25 <aarowlaptop> 5.3 was new  for years and years
08:37:43 <aarowlaptop> 5.5 feels like it's barely been around and already it's being replaced by 5.6
08:37:48 <mingard> yeah, they don't seem to be doing LTS-style releases with the new system
08:37:59 <aarowlaptop> no
08:38:08 <robertl_> I guess that's what you get with more and more automated testing - things get stable quicker :)
08:38:24 <aarowlaptop> hm, I guess the most practical question here, is whether there will be a lot of institutions that choose not to go with Mahara, because it doesn't support their PHP version
08:38:45 <mingard> do we know what version most of our clients have?
08:38:57 <aarowlaptop> It's a drag to have to continue to limit ourselves to 5.3, but if we have to do it then we have to do it
08:39:01 <robertl_> well there is 'officially supported' and 'it will still work anyway'
08:39:16 <aarowlaptop> Well, when it comes to PHP versions, those are basically the same thing
08:39:35 <aarowlaptop> The meaningful part of dropping PHP 5.3 support, would be that we would start writing code that will crash in PHP 5.3
08:39:44 <aarowlaptop> new functions, new syntax features, etc
08:39:50 <robertl_> 15.04 is probably the first release where the devs all tested in 14.04 rather than some testing on 12.04
08:39:59 <aarowlaptop> Now there is that also
08:40:05 <aarowlaptop> We're all actually only testing in PHP 5.4
08:40:16 <aarowlaptop> or 5.5
08:40:28 <aarowlaptop> I have 5.3 on my laptop
08:40:32 <aarowlaptop> but not my workstation
08:40:41 <robertl_> same
08:40:41 <aarowlaptop> (I'm still running Ubuntu 10.04 on my laptop ;)
08:40:47 <mingard> what are the behat tests being run on?
08:40:58 <anitsirk> mingard: i don't see our stats reporting the OS and PHP version. Just the DB
08:41:02 <aarowlaptop> 5.4 or later, because they use PHP 5.4's built in web server feature
08:41:22 <aarowlaptop> ah yes, maybe we should add PHP version to the mahara.org/stats collection
08:41:31 <aarowlaptop> We could do it in the next minor release
08:41:47 <aarowlaptop> then that will give us some data about whether we need to stick with 5.3 for 15.04
08:42:01 <anitsirk> it wouldn't give us a complete picture, but a better one than guessing all around.
08:42:05 <robertl_> #action add php version to mahara.org/stats
08:42:16 <aarowlaptop> thanks for the input folks
08:42:48 <robertl_> ok now comes to the most important part of the evening ...
08:42:50 <robertl_> #topic Next meeting and chair
08:43:20 <anitsirk> this time is good and should work for uk and europe.
08:43:31 <robertl_> How does Thurs 21st May sound ?
08:43:41 <robertl_> or maybe the 28th?
08:43:55 <robertl_> anyone have a preference?
08:43:59 <mingard> either is fine
08:44:01 <anitsirk> sounds as good as any.
08:44:23 <aarowlaptop> checking my calendar...
08:45:05 <aarowlaptop> both fine by me
08:45:29 <robertl_> ok lets go with 28th - that way we can get done some of the action points :)
08:45:52 <anitsirk> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=44th+Mahara+developer+meeting&iso=20150528T08&p1=1440
08:46:06 <robertl_> ... and who to chair?
08:47:02 * robertl_ watches the tumbleweeds roll by ...
08:47:32 <robertl_> I can do it again if no one else wants to
08:47:35 <anitsirk> well, we said we'd rotate it. you, robertl_ and I have been it lately.
08:47:51 <anitsirk> so there's not much choice left then, right, aarowlaptop? ;-)
08:47:58 <robertl_> mingard :)
08:48:16 <mingard> really?
08:48:18 <aarowlaptop> I suppose I can chair the next one.
08:48:22 <aarowlaptop> Unless Jono wants to do it
08:48:42 <mingard> i can try - am i qualified to do it? ;)
08:49:30 <anitsirk> mingard: did you see anything in the chat you wouldn't be able to do?
08:49:37 <robertl_> it's just typing and cracking the whip now and again
08:50:07 <mingard> looks reasonably straightforward. is there an undo command?
08:50:12 <anitsirk> yup
08:50:17 <robertl_> so mingard is that a yes?
08:50:24 <anitsirk> there is a whole manual ;-)
08:50:30 <mingard> haha ok, yes
08:50:34 <robertl_> #info mingard is going to chair the 44th Mahra developer meeting on 28 May 2015 at 8:00 UTC.
08:50:44 <anitsirk> undo please ;-)
08:50:57 <anitsirk> to fix a typo and to demonstarte the feature ;-)
08:50:59 <robertl_> what's the undo command?
08:51:05 <anitsirk> #undo
08:51:12 <anitsirk> but only the chairperson can use it
08:51:14 <robertl_> #undo #info mingard is going to chair the 44th Mahra developer meeting on 28 May 2015 at 8:00 UTC.
08:51:14 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x195add0>
08:51:25 <robertl_> #info mingard is going to chair the 44th Mahara developer meeting on 28 May 2015 at 8:00 UTC.
08:51:38 <anitsirk> thanks.
08:51:40 <robertl_> sweet - simple as :)
08:51:52 <anitsirk> i think you even only need to type #undo
08:51:53 <aarowlaptop> Well, I've got to get going. Good night everyone!
08:51:58 <robertl_> #topic Any other business
08:52:04 <mingard> good night aarowlaptop!
08:52:07 <robertl_> cya aarowlaptop
08:52:15 <anitsirk> bye, aarowlaptop
08:52:17 <robertl_> I've got no other business
08:52:20 <aarowlaptop> I have no other business either
08:52:22 <aarowlaptop> ;)
08:52:22 <anitsirk> e neither
08:52:24 <mingard> nothing from me
08:52:28 <robertl_> ok
08:52:36 <robertl_> #endmeeting