08:05:56 #startmeeting 08:05:56 Meeting started Thu Oct 23 08:05:56 2014 UTC. The chair is robertl_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 08:05:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 08:06:11 Please introduce yourselves 08:06:14 #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner at Catalyst IT, Wellington, New Zealand 08:06:20 #info robertl_ is Robert Lyon, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ 08:06:20 #info tobiasz is Tobias Zeuch, developer at KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany 08:06:31 #info ghada-laptop is Ghada El-Zoghbi at Catalyst, Sydney, Australia 08:06:40 #info yuliya is Yuliya Bozhko from Totara Learning Solutions, Wellington, NZ 08:06:55 #info aarowlaptop is Aaron G. Wells from Catalyst IT in Wellington NZ 08:07:32 anzeljg: ? 08:08:08 robertl_ continue. i think he may have needed to step out into another meeting 08:08:12 Right first topic 08:08:13 #topic Items from last meeting 08:08:23 #info anzeljg is Gregor Anželj, developer and translator from Gimnazija Bežigrad, Ljubljana, Slovenia 08:08:33 #info Item 1 from last meeting: robertl_ to look into the reviews permissions to see if the change author problem can be avoided and/or update the wiki page with more info 08:08:52 I've updated the info to be (hopefully) a bit clearer about when one should rename the author or what other options one has with regards to the 'invalid author' error. 08:08:57 https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Pushing_Git_Commits#Problems_with_pushing_patches_to_gerrit 08:09:38 if anything needs rewording let me know 08:10:09 with "maintainer" do you mean someone who has +2 privileges? 08:10:33 or the person who pushed the patch initially? 08:11:43 robertl_ ^ 08:12:07 ah maintainer is wrong - should read core team - bad copy/paste 08:12:14 I'll fix up 08:12:35 also, not sure if related, is there still a problem with certificates on Ubuntu where you have to set git sslverify to false? 08:12:56 I remember that being one of the problems, but it's not permission one 08:14:10 I've not come across a problem after setting git sslverify to false 08:14:29 https still doesn't work with our gerrit 08:14:36 I don't think we ever determined what the exact cause was 08:14:43 yep, that's true. just wondering if it is mentioned somewhere 08:15:01 We're in the process of upgrading it, but it turns out we need to upgrade the underlying server's OS as well, because it's too old to get the right version of Java 08:15:10 if it is not necessary, then ignore me :) 08:15:16 ah, gotcha 08:15:34 It will be worth documenting it as a potential issue for pushing patches 08:16:02 I'll add that to the page as well 08:16:17 I didn't recognize problems with the certificate when pushing, only for fetching patches 08:16:19 there is a specific error that you get with that issue, but I don't remember which one 08:16:22 #action robertl_ to add info about sslverify 08:17:13 I had that issue as well but it's been over a year now so I don't remember the exact details. 08:17:26 :) everyone fixes it once and then forgets 08:17:36 I'm sure google will help with that :) 08:17:40 #info rkabalin Ruslan Kabalin, Lancaster University, UK 08:17:46 hi rkabalin 08:17:51 Hello 08:18:01 ok, anymore git/gerrit problems we need to document 08:18:10 hi rkabalin 08:18:25 not that I am aware of 08:18:32 ok moving on... 08:18:37 just a sec... 08:18:38 robertl_: I think can reproduce that, if you have questions 08:18:51 i did have one issue with the sign off not being the last line 08:19:07 you do mention it there. but, does it need its own area? 08:19:08 the Invalid Change-Id one? 08:19:46 you mention it there but it was quite an obscure error and the problem was that there was no sign-off 08:20:28 hi tonyjbutler 08:20:29 ah yep, you mean the commit was done without -s 08:20:37 people are talking to me 08:20:40 yes, that's it robertl_ 08:20:46 hi everyone, sorry I'm late. 08:20:48 hi waa_ yep. :-) 08:21:02 hi tonyjbutler, waa_ 08:21:04 ok will update the info about that as well 08:21:12 ok. thanks. 08:21:29 #action robertl_ to improve the documents about needing to sign-off a patch 08:21:52 ok next item is 08:21:54 #info Item 2 from last meeting: robertl_ to write his first mahara newsletter article on an upcoming 1.11 feature, the "artefact feedback on page" one funded by New York Institute of Technology 08:22:05 I did write a small article titled "Artefact feedback display on a page" -> https://mahara.org/newsletter so that's done 08:22:11 :-) 08:22:33 hopefully every read the newsletter and were happy :) 08:22:54 so onto the next topic 08:22:56 #topic Mahara 1.10 release (Kristina) 08:22:59 #info We released Mahara 1.10 on Tuesday. Congrats to everyone who was involved. 08:23:00 https://www.freesound.org/people/ultradust/sounds/166923/ let the champagne flow freely. 08:23:25 yay for 1.10! 08:23:43 :D 08:23:59 good effort everyone! 08:24:22 Did you actually had a champagne in the office on release day? ;) 08:24:50 rkabalin: nope. it turned out to be uneventful with prepping for the releases of 1.7 to 1.9 08:24:53 We'll have some tequila in its honor tomorrow 08:24:58 :D 08:25:32 usually we keep the booze out of the office until after 4pm on Friday ;) 08:25:42 damn, and I am not drinking till Nov 2nd >.< 08:25:45 so not fair 08:26:32 BTW: big thanks to waa_ for fixing the chanops in #mahara so that aarow and robertl are ops now as well. 08:26:33 i'm sure they'll drink for you yuliyabozhko. 08:26:44 1.10 is a great job anyway, thanks guys 08:27:38 If you notice anything broken/regressed please let us know 08:28:08 I've noticed a couple of things. ;) 08:28:14 But they're filed in the bug tracker 08:28:15 anitsirk: are the tester going to keep testing? 08:28:17 * robertl_ too 08:28:31 ghada: we are getting closer to running our first behat tests. 08:28:44 that's great news. 08:28:49 once a bit more work has been done, they can start cranking out behat tests. :-) 08:28:55 yeah, I heard that too. that's awesome! 08:29:34 yep, behat sounds good 08:29:41 #info Behat test infrastructure for automated functional testing is getting closer to being used for running tests. soon we'll be able to integrate them into mahara. 08:30:11 probably more on that next time 08:30:20 we had a wonderful discussion about links vs buttons today due to behat 08:30:45 "wonderful" in quotes? ;-) 08:31:17 interesting about what a link vs a button "means" to the end user 08:31:40 i.e. a technical end user who may distinguish between them ;-) 08:31:43 We have a lot of buttons that we style as links and vice versa 08:31:56 about destructive vs non-destructive results on clicking them 08:32:39 and the conclusion - which is the way to go? 08:33:09 I don't think there is a definite right way... 08:33:09 I'm not sure there was a conclusion 08:33:14 :) 08:33:24 Yeah 08:33:26 The Behat coding will be changed to account for both without having the testers needing to know whether it's a button or a link. 08:33:50 Well, Aaron Barnes said he'd look into writing a Behat verb that will auto-detect whether the desired element is a button or a link 08:33:57 currently there are separate verbs for each 08:34:16 which can be tricky for less-technical testers when our buttons look like links 08:34:26 er, links look like buttons, I mean 08:35:01 if it's confused you aarowlaptop, there's no hope for the others!:) 08:35:18 to me it's all just hypertext ;) 08:35:58 shall we move on? 08:36:07 yep. 08:36:14 #topic Proposal: Change Mahara's version numbers (Kristina) 08:36:15 yeah 08:36:20 We've been discussing Mahara's versioning at Catalyst. I find that we've been on Mahara 1 for a very long time though we've made some huge changes over the years. Some even say we should have moved to version 2 latest last year. 08:36:20 #info I don't think our current version numbering system is great. It doesn't give our users much insight into how far Mahara has come over the years. In contrast, it can be tricky to remember when a certain version was released and until when one is supported. 08:36:20 #idea Therefore, I propose to change the versioning system to something more user friendly. I quite like the "date of release" numbering and in particular Ubuntu's way of having the year first and then the month in which a release was made, e.g. 15.04, 15.10. It shows you very quickly when a release was made, but doesn't judge how big or small a leap was made. 08:36:20 Since we know that new releases always contain new features and that you may not be able to upgrade without difficulty, we could go over to something that may make more sense to users rather than developers. Since we haven't been using our numbering system strictly, e.g. in the sense that SemVer does, it doesn't actually mean anything. 08:36:20 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning for some short background reading on numbering systems. 08:36:20 There is no one way of expressing release versions of a software, and I don't think that we do ourselves any good with continuing to stay on version 1. Instead of just dropping the 1 or going to 2 which may be confusing as users might expect a huge change, I suggest we go over to something that suggests less quantity, but rather contains some qualities that'll help us to easily determine when we made a specific release. 08:36:20 Security patches for supported version would still be the third number, e.g. 15.04.1 etc. 08:36:21 .. 08:38:11 offtopic, it reminds me that Moodle has plans for Moodle 3 already :) 08:38:51 To be honest, I have never seen a piece of software that would use year as the major version number 08:38:53 Yeah, Moodle's just decided to go from 2.9 to 3.0 08:39:18 rkabalin: ubuntu and apparently wine 08:39:31 Ubuntu's the big one I'm aware of 08:39:49 (We're very Ubuntu-centric at Catalyst) 08:39:49 should embrace Windows' approach 1,2,3....8,10 :D 08:39:50 anitsirk: i think the year.month is fine. I do think that we should have jumped from 1.9 to 2.0. 08:40:07 I think it makes perfect sense 08:40:30 I think version should be sequential thing, there might be jumps in major number, e.g. from 1.12 to 2, but not from 10.01 to 12.01 08:40:38 ghada: i think we discussed right after 1.6 that we might have jumped but definitely right around 1.8. 1.9 to 1.10 wasn't such a huge change in many ways compared to earlier releases. 08:41:57 yes, not about the huge change. It's just odd to 2 digits after the major release - when it's only version 1. 08:42:03 but why jump from 1.12 to 2? when do you decide that or do you just continue with 1.13? it's very arbitrary for mahara at the moment for not having already jumped to 2. i think it's best to avoid all that with a different approach that is more user friendly. 08:42:40 i think that's a good idea going forward. 08:42:58 it makes it easy to calculate how much longer you will have support on a particular version. 08:43:22 I don't really understand the Moodle logic of going to 3.0 without a major change. 08:43:27 that for one and it also tells us when we released a specific version 08:43:36 yeah, and since we do major releases based on 6-months, rather than on reaching a certain amount of change, having a date-based version number seems more honest as well 08:43:38 yes. 08:44:11 I'm for it. 08:44:13 agree 08:44:17 -1 08:44:18 +1 08:44:24 everyone understands something different for the "typical" numbering system of 1.1 to 1.2 to 2.0 etc. but in fact, everyone interprets it differently so that there is no easy consensus when using that scheme 08:44:55 +1 08:45:35 * rkabalin too conservative about version number 08:45:46 ;-) 08:45:52 I can imagine there will be some pain switching numbering systems - but I feel a switch is needed 08:46:04 and the date based one sounds good to me 08:46:06 +1 08:46:10 tonyjbutler: I think Moodle may be looking at it from the maturity of the product. It's been around for a while and should be greater than "2". 08:46:28 ghada: fair point 08:47:29 anitsirk: are we going to make a decision tonight about the version numbering? Or, will this go out to the community for feedback? 08:48:05 that would be a good idea, actually 08:48:53 i don't know if it's such a big deal to ask everyone. 08:48:58 I wonder if it would be worth having the version number in a mahara instance be a link to a mahara wiki page explaining our thought on the numbering 08:49:30 Good idea 08:49:36 This type of change can divide a community... 08:49:44 :) 08:49:46 the numbering of releases is decided by the release team who could change a version number at the last minute (if going by SemVer etc.). 08:49:47 I would expect additional info about particular release when clicking upon version number 08:49:53 cause if we go from 1.10 -> 15.04 in one jump it'll be confusing for people 08:50:20 i'm happy to make a bunch of announcements and say we are switching and then see if there is a big confusion or not. 08:50:25 it could be 15.04 (1.11) 08:50:50 anitsirk: yes, I agree. I would prefer to make the decision and go forward. 08:50:51 since aarow already set up the 1.11 branch, we could leave it at that for the time being but see how people feel with calling it 15.04. 08:50:56 to make it more confusing )) 08:51:13 i don't think we should keep a second (internal) version number. that would really confuse things. 08:51:31 we will still have the build number to identify things down to a tea as for DB changes. 08:51:33 for the first release only may be 08:51:35 How about a code name too ;-) 08:51:49 tonyjbutler: you must have been talking to aarowlaptop :-D 08:51:49 actually there's not a 1.11 branch yet 08:51:51 1.11 is on master 08:52:12 +1 for code name :) 08:52:21 ha. even easier. i thought you had said today that there is already a branch. or maybe i just misunderstood that you meant the milestone in launchpad 08:52:26 oh no! Not code names!!! 08:52:48 the first code name should be "kiwi" 08:52:51 :) 08:52:54 I was just saying, the branch names will be slightly longer. 15.04_STABLE instead of 1.11_STABLE :) 08:53:01 k is eleventh letter... so 1.11 08:53:24 I personally don't like code names because I can never remember what version number they relate to... 08:53:38 anzeljg is really running with this :-) 08:53:39 aarowlaptop: me too. 08:54:15 I think Mahara had code names way back in the very beginning. 08:54:34 we have them in Totara, but they are only for devs to have fun :P 08:54:38 but yeah, I find them too confusing as well. I know my ubuntu by version number, but can never remember its code name. 08:54:50 Some people like nicknames. I'm sure Evonne would appreciate the chance to draw up more mascot images. ;) 08:55:19 I'm sure she would - in all that downtime she has 08:55:24 of fruit - just not apples. 08:55:29 lol 08:55:33 but yeah, I find them confusing 08:56:09 I think, a 6month cycle is too short for code names, they would change too often 08:56:10 ok, have we come to a decision? 08:56:33 tobiasz: agree. 08:56:35 Ok. I'll write something up to explain the change in the numbering scheme and then post it wherever i find (please feel free to repost etc.). usually, i get most user responses on Facebook. :-) 08:56:59 there is Mahara group on FB? =-O 08:57:09 yuliyabozhko: heaps 08:57:31 ha, good to know :) 08:57:39 are they about mahara the eportfolio system? ;) 08:57:41 the mug group, the japanes group, moodle-mahara-meetup, the german group, the czech group, maharamoot de, and then those that i'm not even a member of 08:57:48 tobiasz: yep 08:58:11 i guess, robertl_, a second action item for me is to update our wiki with all the links to these groups. 08:58:25 and there is a linkedin group, a google+ group, a facebook page... 08:58:36 no twitter!! 08:58:36 robertl_: can you please action my two items? 08:58:39 I am on linkedin one 08:58:45 ghada: twitter goes without saying ;-) 08:58:45 ?? 08:58:50 twitter hastag #mahara 08:58:53 of course! 08:58:55 #action kristina to update wiki with links to mahara groups 08:58:56 and @maharaproject 08:59:13 robertl_ and the other one about the release numbers 08:59:19 #action kristina to write something to explain the release numbers 08:59:39 ghada: i couldn't post links on twitter for the second day now. it thinks i may be a bot. :-( 08:59:55 lol 08:59:58 lol 09:00:06 note to self: don't send too many release tweets 09:00:22 with the same url. i think that was the problem. 09:00:24 anitsirk: you really made me laugh out loud here... 09:00:48 mhh. was the image good or bad? ;-) 09:01:00 it was GREAT! 09:01:26 ok, we good to move on? 09:01:32 ghada: i'll ask you about it tomorrow if i don't forget. ;-) 09:01:37 yep, robertl_ fine by me 09:01:39 yes please. 09:01:48 #topic Mahara 1.11/15.04 - what's on the roadmap? (Robert) 09:01:56 Looking at https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Specifications_in_Development 09:02:04 https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Specifications_in_Development 09:02:09 There is a swag of things we would like to include into the next release or develop over the next few cycles - ranging from small pieces of work to some very large untertakings. 09:02:25 This list came from a brainstorm we had here at Catalyst and is in no way a complete list nor does it meant all things have to be built but rather a list of things that we felt were needed in Mahara. 09:02:39 If anyone has built/begin development for any of these features and would like to give back to core they will be most appreciated. 09:02:49 #info the "Specifications in Development" page on the wiki contains, as robertl_ says, "a swag of things we would like to include into the next release or develop over the next few cycles - ranging from small pieces of work to some very large untertakings." 09:02:49 If you have ideas of what could also be added to the list - now is a good time to discuss it. 09:04:13 some of the larger things would most likely need to be split up over several releases. but we need to start somewhere with the specs so we know where we'll be heading. 09:05:09 will we support html5 placeholder attribute in pieform elements? 09:05:26 #info the ideas you see in the list are a compilation of our ideas as well as ideas that we've gathered over the last months including Mahara Hui, Mahara UK, and the padlet https://mahara.org/view/view.php?id=120961 09:06:07 we haven't listed everything as Launchpad is for that. so we'll also add the items not in the table to Launchpad as wishlist items so we have them all in a central space. 09:06:52 if there are bugs open in Launchpad, would be good to add links to the table? 09:06:56 placeholder is not supported by IE9 I think 09:07:04 would you link the wiki entries to the launchpad entries? 09:07:15 #and BTW, these items are just from the Catalyst team (plus community). everyone is welcome to propose other things as well to get into the April release. 09:07:16 are we going to drop support for some browser versions - older ones? 09:07:38 well, IE9 is not that old 09:07:43 we tend to do latest 3 IE versions 09:07:43 tobiasz: yes, if we have specs on the wiki, they'll be posted on launchpad as well and vice versa 09:07:46 no but 6 09:07:58 which IE9 is one of them 09:08:05 I think at this point IE6 exists only in China :P 09:08:07 ok. 09:08:07 anitsirk: ok, great 09:08:10 IE6 is long out of support for us (in contrast to some other projects that still need to support it) 09:08:31 yuliyabozhko: and some gov departments apparently 09:08:33 we have only contempt for IE6 09:09:10 robertl_: agreed. 09:09:20 good to know it's no longer supported. 09:09:30 IE6 is quite popular in the UK )) 09:09:33 what about php versions? 09:09:46 are we doing namespaces? 09:10:19 i know elasticsearch is using namespaces. Do we want to head in that direction? 09:10:31 php 5.3 supports them 09:11:01 at the moment we were planning to stick with PHP 5.3+ support, and not adding namespaces 09:11:11 rkabalin: that's disturbing news. 09:11:30 arrowlaptop: ok. just wanted to know the direction. 09:12:37 @rkabalin: are you sure? 09:13:32 It is a government thing, NHS is iusing it if I am not mistaken, that is more than 1M PCs 09:14:07 are they using mahara in governmental context? 09:14:29 Not in Mahara context, I do not think so 09:14:31 @rkabalin: Wow! That certainly is disturbing. 09:14:38 NHS constantly reporting SCORM bugs on IE7 to us >.< 09:14:40 but we had issues with Moodle themes 09:14:50 arrowlaptop: since we're changing the version numbers, might be interesting to make some coding changes? 09:15:17 like what? 09:15:25 if else brackets!!!! :D 09:15:50 I failed some Moodle patches because I changed my style to Mahara accidentally :-X 09:15:52 no more mochikit!!! please, please 09:16:05 replace pieforms? ^^ 09:16:07 +1 robertl 09:16:42 we were looking for replacement of pieforms too. but couldn't come up with a good alternative that can be switched to painlessly 09:16:43 don't know, just something to think about. 09:17:20 yuliyabozhko: they are like everywhere 09:17:29 Going through "Specifications in development" is it possible in terms of easier Mahara setup to not only create a config file generator but also the database generator for the users that are on shared hosting? 09:18:00 I'm game for big code changes. Although our main goal with this release is to make dramatic improvements to the front-end rather than the back-end 09:18:05 well, my knowledge might be a bit outdated regarding NHS and IE6, it clearly was an issue two years ago, but they are still the oldest version users anyway, perhaps IE7 09:18:18 anzeljg: that's a good idea. 09:18:27 bitnami actually just released their 1.10 version as easy installer of mahara. have to check if they already posted the links. 09:18:50 Yeah, I'd like to do a config generator for this release 09:18:53 aarowlaptop: true, it's more important to make frontend more usable 09:19:00 I guess it could create the DB as well 09:20:17 well, that's a good list to start with. 09:20:37 it's good to have a list/target. 09:20:53 sure is 09:20:55 we can all work towards 09:21:01 a couple of them are dead easy. so maybe even something for robertl_ and aquaman to look into with the open source academy in january :-) 09:21:26 true - get the kids to do it for us :) 09:21:32 haha 09:22:09 so yeah - please don't rush off and do the low hanging fruit ones 09:22:10 #idea anzeljg: create a database generator (for users that are on shared hosting) 09:22:31 i.e. the site logo and the drop-down navigation in particulat i would think 09:23:35 and we'll also circulate this list in the forums. 09:23:54 shall we move on? 09:24:01 lets 09:24:14 now the fun part ... 09:24:16 #topic Next meeting and chair 09:24:43 maybe date first? 09:24:58 yep 09:25:41 say a date in last week of nov? 09:26:11 yep. would work for me 09:26:19 maybe thursday again, 27th? 09:26:19 shall we stick to thursday, i.e. 27 november? 09:26:26 last week of nov would work 09:26:44 I might not be able to make to that one :( doing Queen Charlotte Track I think 09:26:47 yes, that works. 09:26:50 but I will have a look 09:27:15 how about the others? 27th ok? 09:27:15 27th of november is fine with me 09:28:24 it's fine for everyone, so I guess so :) 09:28:53 kristina - how do you do the worldclock link magic? 09:29:14 robertl_ : sure. when you give me a time? 09:29:19 8:00 UTC? 09:29:38 that sounds good to me - seems to get a good crowd in 09:30:06 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=38th+Mahara+Developer+Meeting&iso=20141127T08 09:30:15 December meeting might be under a Christmas tree ;) 09:30:41 we'll work that out next meeting ;) 09:30:42 with jandals as tree ornaments ;-) 09:30:45 yuliyabozhko in the forest )) 09:30:46 that's Thanksgiving 09:31:03 Nov 27. 09:31:05 ghada: bugger. aarowlaptop: are you going to be eating turkey that day? 09:31:35 probably not 09:31:54 it's so hard to find turkey in New Zealand 09:32:21 hard to find *cheap* turkey 09:32:31 I was in a car accident once - hit a turkey 09:32:32 ghada: do you want to take off that day? 09:32:44 antisirk: no, it's ok. 09:33:04 i was just thought it was an interesting coincidence. 09:33:15 so who wants to be the chair then? 09:33:24 anyway, we celebrate it on the weekend. too hard during the week. 09:33:33 good choice :-) 09:33:40 I can chair 09:33:54 rkabalin: woohoo!! 09:34:05 chair sold to rkabalin 09:34:09 #info rkabalin to chair the next mahara dev meeting on 27 November 2014 at 8:00 UTC: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=38th+Mahara+Developer+Meeting&iso=20141127T08 09:34:14 thank you, rkabalin 09:34:21 you guys did it last few times 09:34:34 so that brings it onto ... 09:34:35 #topic Any other business 09:34:54 I don't have any 09:35:00 nope 09:35:01 no 09:35:04 no 09:35:08 none for me 09:35:33 tobiasz, tonyjbutler and aarowlaptop: any other business from you? 09:35:44 No 09:35:44 nope, thanks 09:35:58 nope 09:36:05 ... bringing the hammer down ... 09:36:06 #endmeeting