08:06:44 <anitsirk> #startmeeting
08:06:44 <maharameet> Meeting started Thu Jul 10 08:06:44 2014 UTC.  The chair is anitsirk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:06:44 <maharameet> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:06:59 <anitsirk> Hello and welcome to the 34th Mahara Developer Meeting.
08:07:14 <anitsirk> Please let us know who you are with fronting your intro using #info
08:07:22 <ghada> #info ghada-laptop is Ghada El-Zoghbi from Catalyst-IT Sydney.
08:07:24 <anitsirk> #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:07:25 <tobiasz> #info tobiasz is Tobias Zeuch, developer at the KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany
08:07:45 <yuliyabozhko> #info yuliya is Yuliya Bozhko, developer at TotaraLMS, Wellington NZ
08:07:48 <robertl_> #info robertl_ is Robert Lyon, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:07:51 <tonyjbutler> #info Tony Butler, Moodle/Mahara developer at Lancaster University UK
08:08:02 <ghada> hi nigelcunningham
08:08:07 <anitsirk> Just a note: If you have something long to say, please put .. on a line by itself once you are done to indicate the end of a long statement.
08:08:10 <nigelcunningham> Hi.
08:08:43 <anitsirk> And please feel free to use meetbot commands yourself to put something into the minutes, e.g. by using #info or #idea where appropriate / wanted.
08:08:49 <ghada> we've started the meeting.
08:09:19 <nigelcunningham> #info Nigel Cunningham, developer at Catalyst, Melbourne AU
08:09:34 <anitsirk> great. thank you. that should be almost all. let's get rolling.
08:09:45 <anitsirk> #topic everyone: to comment on the individual items from enhancement list made  by the Ljubljana group in the forums / bugs and then talk about them if  needed : https://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=6283
08:09:57 <anitsirk> #undo
08:09:57 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x1320d90>
08:10:00 <anitsirk> sorry.
08:10:05 <anitsirk> #topic: Items from last meeting
08:10:12 <anitsirk> #info everyone: to comment on the individual items from enhancement list made  by the Ljubljana group in the forums / bugs and then talk about them if  needed : https://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=6283
08:10:21 <anitsirk> did anyone have time to explore / comment?
08:10:38 <ghada> i explored but didn't really comment.
08:10:48 <anitsirk> did anything strike you, ghada?
08:11:12 <anitsirk> e.g. that should be discussed, that needs clarification?
08:11:12 <ghada> A lot of them have started development.
08:11:23 <ghada> a few have been rejected - I think two?
08:11:36 <yuliyabozhko> some have been fixed already as well
08:11:44 <ghada> yes.
08:11:44 <nigelcunningham> I was working on 548021 today - probably about half done now.
08:11:59 <anitsirk> i'm afraid I'm not on top of one that we've been discussing: the anonymous page
08:12:03 <ghada> i picked up one as well.
08:12:31 <ghada> He came back and said that he needs clarification from the group
08:12:44 <ghada> probably enough just to remove the 'by'
08:12:49 <anitsirk> ah that's the one, nigelcunningham
08:13:12 <robertl_> I commented on 1296392
08:13:41 <yuliyabozhko> also tobiasz started working on simple text box, right?
08:13:41 <robertl_> but would need more clarification on how things would work before starting code on it
08:13:58 <ghada> yes, i saw a review for the simple text box.
08:14:05 <tobiasz> yep, it's basically, copy, paste, rename and delete features that it doesn't need
08:14:07 <yuliyabozhko> not sure if it's related to a textbox copying issue...
08:14:31 <ghada> we're going to split them into two separate "text boxes"
08:14:41 <ghada> one is 'notes' and the other is 'text box'.
08:14:47 <yuliyabozhko> I think so, I still don't quite understand if we reached any decision last time :)
08:14:48 <tobiasz> I'm trying to figure out how to migrate single notes into textboxes, but unless we put that into the plugin configuration, I guess, the patch is ready for testing
08:15:17 <anitsirk> #info a number of items are started and have patches. others need clarification.
08:15:50 <anitsirk> tobiasz: how do you deal with textboxes now? do they migrate?
08:16:09 <robertl_> tobiasz if the plugin needs installing on upgrade then having the db changes in the plugin would be best
08:16:11 <yuliyabozhko> don't think so, at least not yet
08:16:19 <tobiasz> they don't, so far. I just created the plain text box block type that is not related to an artefact
08:17:12 <anitsirk> i think a migration of those text boxes that have not yet been used in other pages would be useful for the points discussed last time. what do you think?
08:17:35 <tobiasz> I don't feel comfortable with migrating any note-textboxes automatically, so I think, there won't be any installing. But I'll have a look again at that
08:17:37 <yuliyabozhko> sounds reasonable
08:18:10 <ghada> are the users going to be able to convert a textbox to a note?
08:18:13 <tobiasz> with automatically I mean without any user consent, like, when installing the plugin
08:19:00 <anitsirk> ghada: i don't think that is currently planned.
08:19:12 <ghada> ok.
08:19:31 <yuliyabozhko> yeah, it might be not that simple and will just confuse users
08:19:44 <ghada> yes, you're right.
08:19:50 <robertl_> you could have the block have an admin config option that says 'change textboxes to notes'
08:19:56 <tobiasz> I think, a migration in the other direction would be more hlelpful, as it would also clean up the endless list of notes to insert
08:20:08 <anitsirk> agree, tobiasz
08:20:16 <ghada> yes, i agree also.
08:20:37 <anitsirk> esp since we don't have bulk delete ;-)
08:20:37 <yuliyabozhko> yep, that would be good
08:21:06 <tobiasz> robertl_: and that would just migrate all textboxes to notes? Are we talking about converting the new, plain text box to the reusable one?
08:21:06 <anitsirk> hi aarowlaptop. can you please briefly introduce yourself for the minutes?
08:22:18 <robertl_> depends what we want  - there could be an option to turn reusable ones to non-reusable ones if they meet criteria - eg no attachments/ not used elsewhere
08:22:29 <tobiasz> or did you mean the other way round? I thought about that, but what if some single reusable text boxes were actually meant to be reusable?
08:22:55 <robertl_> hmm, it is quite the complication
08:22:59 <ghada> tobiasz: that haven't been copied yet
08:23:15 <aarowlaptop> what was the command to introduce myself?
08:23:22 <anitsirk> just the #info
08:24:00 <aarowlaptop> #info aarowlaptop is Aaron Wells from Catalyst IT in Wellington NZ
08:24:30 <ghada> robertl_, tobiasz: maybe for the first version, we keep it simple and wait for feedback from the community?
08:24:37 <tobiasz> ok, I'll try to implement an automatic conversion of all reusable text-boxes that aren't copied so far, to plain ones and we can have a look.
08:25:01 <tobiasz> Yep, we can still add a list and offer the admin to unselect some of them later on
08:25:38 <anitsirk> #idea there are potentially two migration paths: reusable notes -> simple non-reusable textboxes and textboxes -> notes. the former would be good to have to get rid of the long list of notes that haven't yet been reused, i.e. copied. those should also not contain any attachments.
08:26:16 <anitsirk> #action tobiasz tries to implement an automatic conversion of all reusable text-boxes that aren't copied so far to plain ones.
08:26:33 <anitsirk> anything else on this at the moment or take a look at the patch?
08:26:36 <yuliyabozhko> I wonder if users will be worried that some notes disappear from notes list after migration...
08:26:50 <ghada> good luck tobiasz
08:27:02 <yuliyabozhko> :) you'll need it
08:27:11 <anitsirk> yuliyabozhko: i wonder how many people actually look at that list
08:27:12 <tobiasz> one short question: has anyone done some conversion like that before? Would I try to do that creating new blocktypes and such or try directly on database level?
08:27:34 <yuliyabozhko> I don't know, but since it's there we'll never know for sure ;)
08:27:43 <anitsirk> tobiasz: we did the other way around: plain text box to note several releases ago. maybe that could help to take a look at?
08:28:04 <tobiasz> right, I remember. Thanks anitsirk
08:28:29 <anitsirk> tobiasz: it was in mahara 1.5 that they were introduced
08:28:45 <tobiasz> ok, I'll have a look at that
08:29:07 <anitsirk> shall we move on?
08:29:11 <yuliyabozhko> yep
08:29:20 <anitsirk> #info aarowlaptop to look into gerrit update
08:29:40 <aarowlaptop> I have not looked into it much yet.
08:30:19 <ghada> aarowlaptop: we got an email - I think from Eugene - Catalyst Moodle is upgrade gerrit.
08:30:27 <aarowlaptop> I noticed that too
08:30:35 <ghada> maybe he would be a good source.
08:30:41 <anitsirk> let's not put that onto the next agenda because aarowlaptop may not have time until next time. and we can check out our internal gerrit first to see how things go ;-)
08:30:44 <aarowlaptop> Perhaps we can get whoever's updating the elearning Moodle to upgrade the Mahara one at the same time
08:30:59 <yuliyabozhko> would be great
08:30:59 <anitsirk> aarowlaptop: good point. i'll check with eugene
08:31:37 <anitsirk> #action anitsirk to check if another catalyst dev can upgrade the mahara gerrit since we are upgrading our internal one as well.
08:31:54 <anitsirk> #info  everyone: to have a look at discussion forum and bug listing https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/1296390 if anything can be added to the discussion
08:32:10 <yuliyabozhko> I think that's the textbox issue again :)
08:32:23 <anitsirk> yes. so we already covered that :-)
08:32:24 <ghada> yep
08:32:35 <anitsirk> #topic Yuliya on documenting undocumented code
08:32:52 <yuliyabozhko> right, just wanted to make a quick note
08:33:11 <yuliyabozhko> if someone is fixing things in undocumented method, could you pls add some PHP Docs?
08:33:24 <yuliyabozhko> it is very difficult to review...
08:33:35 <rkabalin> #info rkabalin Ruslan Kabalin, Lancaster University, UK
08:33:40 <anitsirk> hi rkabalin
08:33:44 <robertl_> sounds a good plan
08:33:47 <rkabalin> hello, sorry, I am late
08:33:54 <yuliyabozhko> since lots of us don't know what's going on in code quite often :)
08:33:59 <tobiasz> agree, sounds like a good idea
08:34:12 <ghada> yuliyabozhko: i like that idea.
08:34:16 <yuliyabozhko> and definitely document new code. that should be a must
08:34:21 <anitsirk> #idea if someone is fixing things in undocumented method, they should add some PHP Docs
08:34:21 <robertl_> if we are fixing a method we should know what it does :)
08:34:39 <aarowlaptop> agreed
08:34:39 <ghada> easier said than done.
08:34:45 <anitsirk> anyone against?
08:35:00 <yuliyabozhko> sometimes you learn as you fix things, but someone who is reviewing might not be so sure :)
08:35:01 <ghada> it would speed up the reviews.
08:35:44 <anitsirk> #info review process could be sped up by having some docs available in the code as not everyone will be familiar with everything.
08:35:46 <ghada> i think everyone is for it.
08:35:53 <yuliyabozhko> yeah, second that :)
08:36:15 <anitsirk> #agreed: when fixing code in an undocumented method, some PHP docs should be added to aid understanding.
08:36:28 <yuliyabozhko> that's me
08:36:36 <rkabalin> +1 from me for documenting
08:36:38 <anitsirk> alright. that was easy, yuliyabozhko :-)
08:36:49 <anitsirk> #topic Tobias on Multirecipient messenger
08:37:00 <tobiasz> The new plugin for the messenger/user notification system is basically finished. There were just a few questions opening up while doing the reviews/fixing their results
08:37:15 <anitsirk> #info The new plugin for the messenger/user notification system is basically finished. There were just a few questions opening up while doing the reviews/fixing their results
08:37:23 <tobiasz> first: The inbox blocktype only shows the internal notifications. Is that a huge problem for the patch in general? I suggest editing the existing blocktype to display the messages, when the plugin is active
08:37:50 <anitsirk> what other notifications are there?
08:38:11 <anitsirk> #idea The inbox blocktype only shows the internal notifications. Is that a huge problem for the patch in general?
08:38:17 <tobiasz> well, it's user notifications, but since they are sent over another plugin, the old inbox blocktype doesn't recognize them yet
08:38:18 <ghada> it won't display the 'new' messages in the table new tables.
08:38:47 <anitsirk> so the little envelope icon would not light up?
08:38:55 <yuliyabozhko> does this patch using tables different from activity tables?
08:39:19 <tobiasz> yes, it does
08:39:33 <ghada> in the dashboard, the list of messages is not complete - it only displays from the old tables.
08:39:37 <anitsirk> tobiasz: which question are you answering? ;-)
08:39:40 <tobiasz> both, the envelope lights up, if you didn't set it to email notification and it uses another table
08:39:52 <anitsirk> thanks for the clarification
08:40:10 <tobiasz> sorry, for the unclear answer ^^
08:40:16 <anitsirk> np
08:40:49 <anitsirk> i don't think it would be good to have two plugins where one is called inbox but doesn't display all inbox messages
08:41:22 <tobiasz> I see that the inbox blocktype has to be updated, just would like to now if that has to happen before feature freeze for the plugin in general to be merged
08:41:45 <yuliyabozhko> hmm, I didn't really see this plugin yet, so can't comment anything
08:42:03 <tobiasz> the plugin is called "multirecipientnofication" but still, messages should appear in the inbox-blocktype
08:43:02 <anitsirk> i would say it would be better to have the messages show up in the inbox block for the implementation into core
08:43:08 <ghada> tobiasz: are you suggesting that the blocktype inbox be modifed - to check if the "multirecipientnotification" is installed?
08:43:12 <yuliyabozhko> ummm, my very first question is why it is an artefact?
08:43:44 <tobiasz> yes, ghada, that's my suggestion. It would check if the plugin is active, though, so not to break the blocktype when the plugin is disabled
08:44:11 <ghada> ok, that makes sense. Since this new plugin is going into core.
08:44:49 <tobiasz> yuliyabozhko: We started as an artefact for our internal installation to not break the update process. I think I mentioned the idea to integrate it into the core, but no one insisted on that so far ;)
08:45:14 <yuliyabozhko> does it mean that it stores everything in artefact table too?
08:45:27 <tobiasz> nope, it has it's own tables
08:45:33 <yuliyabozhko> it's just we have 'module' plugin now which sounds more like what should be used
08:45:49 <yuliyabozhko> I mean 'module' type of plugins
08:45:56 <anitsirk> it would make sense to have it in core. :-)
08:46:05 <ghada> so, the question is: do we need to upgrade the blocktype inbox before the release of this new artefact?
08:46:38 <yuliyabozhko> inbox shows activities
08:46:41 <anitsirk> and should it stay an artefact plugin or be of a different type
08:46:55 <tobiasz> not sure, if generic module works, because it has to overwrite the existing inbox
08:46:57 <yuliyabozhko> as I understand this plugin doesn't generate activities?
08:47:02 <ghada> i'm not familiar with the new 'module' type
08:47:49 <tobiasz> so far, user notifications are activities
08:48:00 <yuliyabozhko> yep, that's right
08:48:50 <aarowlaptop> the "module" plugin type was a new plugin type that we created, which basically is a generic plugin for things that don't match any of the other types
08:49:11 <ghada> thanks arrowlaptop.
08:50:01 <tobiasz> I think that in general, all notifications could be changed to work with the new plugin and than I guess it would make sense to move the inbox in general to a module
08:50:39 <tobiasz> but I doubt I can do that until the feature freeze ;)
08:50:46 <anitsirk> #idea all notifications could be changed to work with the new plugin and than I guess it would make sense to move the inbox in general to the 'module' plugin type
08:50:58 <yuliyabozhko> when is the feature freeze?
08:51:17 <anitsirk> split week of end of July / beginning of August
08:51:41 <yuliyabozhko> 2 weeks away from now :-/
08:51:57 <anitsirk> see https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/6MonthlyCycle
08:52:20 <anitsirk> #info feature freeze is in the week of july 28, 2014
08:52:49 <yuliyabozhko> changing inbox would be quite a bit of work IMO
08:53:11 <tobiasz> you mean the blocktype?
08:53:12 <ghada> you mean the blocktype?
08:53:25 <ghada> :)
08:53:39 <tobiasz> :)
08:53:41 <yuliyabozhko> maybe we need some hooks? :)
08:54:30 <ghada> tobiasz: what do you think? hooks?
08:54:43 <yuliyabozhko> or myabe tobiasz can change blocktype fast enough
08:54:50 <yuliyabozhko> :)
08:55:30 <tobiasz> I'm lost on the hooks. But I think, I could get the blocktype until end of July
08:55:47 <ghada> i don't have the code in front of me. But, I had a very quick look at the blocktype. I think it's not a huge change.
08:56:10 <ghada> it would be where the SQL grabs the messages.
08:56:19 <yuliyabozhko> you also need to make sure that everything works when plugin is off
08:56:32 <tobiasz> yeah, that'll be the biggest change
08:56:33 <ghada> yes, that's why the check for the active plugin
08:57:03 <anitsirk> yuliyabozhko: do you mean deleted or hidden?
08:57:22 <anitsirk> when a plugin is hidden in mahara, you can still use the functionality when you know the url to it.
08:57:23 <yuliyabozhko> both
08:57:25 <anitsirk> we don't have full disabling
08:57:26 <ghada> there are functions to check for active plugings.
08:57:29 <tobiasz> ok, so I'll try to adapt the inbox-blocktype fast enough
08:58:08 <tobiasz> I'll add one or check with the database. And I'll also consider the case in that someone rips the plugin from the installation
08:58:14 <anitsirk> tobiasz: be inspired by the 6 goals in the first 30 minutes: much faster than expected ;-)
08:58:30 <yuliyabozhko> by hook I meant that any plugin can return data in format required by indox and inbox just need to grab it and display
08:58:32 <ghada> :-D
08:59:02 <tobiasz> :)
08:59:15 <ghada> The Germans are happy
08:59:32 <yuliyabozhko> I bet :D
08:59:39 <tobiasz> sounds like a good idea though not until feature freeze
08:59:40 <anitsirk> #info tobiasz will attempt to get the inbox work done before the feature freeze
08:59:55 <anitsirk> i'll not make it an action item. :-)
09:00:05 <tobiasz> ok :)
09:00:12 <ghada> he's already got the text box item to finish.
09:00:19 <anitsirk> yep.
09:00:28 <tobiasz> next subpoint: Forum posts appear in the outbox. If there are a lot of subscribers in the forum, there'll be a lot of messages in the outbox. For our installation, we developed a search bar for the inbox/outbox so that messages could easily be found.
09:00:45 <tobiasz> note: The outbox also comes with the plugin
09:01:12 <anitsirk> why would forum posts appear in your outbox?
09:01:23 <anitsirk> is it only the ones that you have sent?
09:01:41 <tobiasz> nope, it also shows the ones sent via the old notification system
09:01:59 <anitsirk> so it would be doubling things up? show forum posts in in and outbox?
09:02:24 <tobiasz> yeah, I guess so
09:02:40 <tobiasz> you receive a message about your own post, right?
09:02:46 <anitsirk> i get why they show up in the inbox, but don't know why they should apear in the outbox
09:02:48 <anitsirk> tobiasz: yes
09:03:27 <ghada> technically, it's because the forum sent to all the users.
09:03:41 <tobiasz> the outbox basically shows all notifications that originated from the logged in user. But I can see, how it would make sense to exclude the forum posts from there, now
09:03:42 <ghada> but, it did get to be quite messy.
09:04:39 <anitsirk> i think excluding would be sensible since you do get them in the inbox. i would say either one or the other, but since you are the recipient of forum posts, i'd expect them in my inbox.
09:04:54 <tobiasz> another idea would be to send the forum posts via the new plugin, so they would appear only once. But that'd be for the next release
09:05:06 <anitsirk> and only want to see my own in an outbox if at all
09:05:45 <anitsirk> there was a feature request where someone wanted to see all the forum posts they had sent. so that would be an application for showing forum posts in a person's outbox i think
09:06:31 <anitsirk> tobiasz: what do you mean with "appear only once"?
09:06:43 <tobiasz> can you find that request again? But for the mean time I think it's best to not show them at all because they flood the outbox
09:06:54 <anitsirk> yep, agree.
09:06:58 <anitsirk> i'll try to find it
09:07:19 <ghada> i agree.
09:07:19 <tobiasz> anitsirk: each internal notification is a single entry and appears as a single entry in the outbox so far
09:07:22 <tobiasz> ok
09:07:53 <tobiasz> next: Ghada linked to a patch with accessibility features that were added to the old patch. I can try to add those to my patch, but if that's crucial, someone else should have a look afterwards to see if there were no new accessibility problems introduced with the extended interface.
09:08:29 <tobiasz> sorry, I meant to the old inbox not the old patch
09:08:52 <ghada> robertl_ added some accessibility features to the old inbox.
09:09:11 <anitsirk> tobiasz: we will need to ensure accessibility to keep up our rating. :-) all new features are to be accessible. it turned out that most didn't take much work
09:09:41 <robertl_> accessibility is usually just tweaking the templates
09:10:10 <yuliyabozhko> but someone still needs to test it :)
09:10:12 <nigelcunningham> Are there docs on making things accessible?
09:10:17 <tobiasz> ok, just wanted to mention that, so it doesn't get lost. I guess that also can be fixed after the feature freeze
09:10:23 <yuliyabozhko> wiki
09:10:25 <robertl_> to add accessible-hidden classes to add screenreader only text
09:10:42 <yuliyabozhko> https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Accessibility_Checklist
09:10:46 <nigelcunningham> ta
09:11:44 <tobiasz> ok, I'll have a look at those, though not necessarily until end of July
09:12:17 <ghada> I'll see if I can help there.
09:12:22 <tobiasz> ok, thanks
09:12:27 <ghada> do you mind me making changes to your patch?
09:12:41 <ghada> tobiasz^
09:12:47 <tobiasz> as long as I still can upload afterwards, I don't.
09:12:59 <ghada> ok.
09:13:00 <anitsirk> #info new features should pass accessibility testing as accessibility is important in many countries and often required these days.
09:13:40 <tobiasz> not sure about the rights, once robertl_ edited a patch of mine and afterwards I couldn't upload any more. Not a big issue, unless I still work on the patch
09:14:06 <yuliyabozhko> you need to checkout the latest version from gerrit
09:14:26 <ghada> oh, better check. I did some changes to yours on the last patch - some minor stuff - instead of going back and forth.
09:14:32 <robertl_> there can be author clashes but they can be got around
09:14:59 <tobiasz> ok, I'll check with the recent patch and I'll find someone to fix it, if I can't upload any more
09:15:01 <yuliyabozhko> yeah, and make sure to remove everything after sign-off in commit message
09:15:11 <yuliyabozhko> that always breaks things for me :)
09:15:28 <ghada> sorry
09:15:49 <robertl_> sometimes you need to git commit --amend --author="name <email>"
09:16:02 <robertl_> where your name and email is supplied
09:16:04 <tobiasz> ok, thanks
09:16:09 <anitsirk> maybe someone could write up the procedure so it can be referred to?
09:16:14 <anitsirk> seems to come up from time to time
09:16:38 <robertl_> yep needs to be added to the mahara wiki
09:16:57 <anitsirk> any volunteers?
09:18:16 <anitsirk> sorry for that conversation killer
09:18:39 <robertl_> I'll try and get some notes together and update the wiki
09:18:50 <tobiasz> If I have to work that out for this patch, I can add that to the wiki
09:18:58 <robertl_> I have some notes in a work - so will try and do it monday
09:19:37 <anitsirk> #action robertl_ to write up notes of how to deal with patches that one person started and another continued and then hands back
09:19:47 <anitsirk> thank you, robertl_ tobiasz you can then test it and tweak it :-)
09:19:51 <anitsirk> tobiasz: do you want to move on?
09:19:55 <tobiasz> yes
09:20:03 <tobiasz> When a user is deleted, the plugin marks all his messages as deleted by him and complete removes those messages that have been deleted by all other participants. I'm using the display_user method, so I think that works find and makes sense so far.
09:20:11 <tobiasz> In that discussion, the question arose if user messages should be cleaned up with a cron job, as the help-text tells.
09:20:27 <tobiasz> We are not that happy with the automatic deletion of user messages, as there is no way to archive/conserve them. The forum posts and view access notifications, on the other hand, only point to information, that can still be found some other place, after the notification has been deleted..
09:20:41 <anitsirk> https://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=6355 for reference
09:20:48 <tobiasz> thanks
09:21:12 <anitsirk> #info When a user is deleted, the plugin marks all his messages as deleted by him and complete removes those messages that have been deleted by all other participants. In that discussion, the question arose if user messages should be cleaned up with a cron job, as the help-text tells.
09:21:25 <anitsirk> #info We are not that happy with the automatic deletion of user messages, as there is no way to archive/conserve them. The forum posts and view access notifications, on the other hand, only point to information, that can still be found some other place, after the notification has been deleted.
09:21:47 <anitsirk> so we are after a few more opinions. :-)
09:22:41 <ghada> sorry, some clarification. Currently, messages aren't getting deleted.
09:22:51 <anitsirk> correct
09:23:03 <anitsirk> even though it says that they are deleted after a certain time.
09:23:05 <tobiasz> some are, after 6 mongths, I think. But only forum posts, page access notifications and one more
09:23:07 <ghada> And, there's a request to make that work - after 60 days I think.
09:23:34 <anitsirk> ghada: that was just me filing it as bug because the system says something but doesn't do it
09:23:36 <tobiasz> the request is based on the help-text, as far as I remember
09:23:47 <ghada> yes.
09:23:58 <anitsirk> i think i mentioned that it might need to be reviewed altogether
09:24:03 <ghada> so, the issue is, the users will have no history of their messages once they're deleted.
09:24:12 <anitsirk> correct
09:24:37 <ghada> whereas, if they receive email notifications, they'll have that history.
09:24:38 <anitsirk> esp since the message itself is not sent via mail
09:24:42 <tobiasz> which is fine in my opinion for forum posts and the like, where the actual information still can be found in another place
09:25:15 <anitsirk> ghada: no. the messages aren't sent. so you'll only know that you received a message, but if it is deleted from the system you have no idea what was in it.
09:25:16 <tobiasz> but you can change that setting and have the notifications not sent to you via email at all
09:25:30 <ghada> yes, of course.
09:25:52 <ghada> so, are we suggesting that we need to have some kind of export of messages?
09:26:00 <ghada> so they can have a history of them?
09:26:17 <anitsirk> aarowlaptop made the point that we already have VERP and thus could send out the full message via mail without disclosing the email address of the user
09:26:22 <ghada> or , do we keep them in the system forever?
09:26:38 <tobiasz> I'd say, leave the user messages and delete all the other notifications on a regular basis, that just hold redundant information
09:27:02 <tobiasz> at least until users can save the notifications somehow, like an archiving functionality or folders
09:27:18 <anitsirk> that sounds good to me.
09:27:31 <aarowlaptop> sure
09:27:37 <robertl_> sounds good to me also
09:27:48 <yuliyabozhko> agree
09:27:49 <tobiasz> VERP still sounds like a great feature, btw :)
09:27:50 <ghada> ok, what about , for example, objectionable messages?
09:27:59 <ghada> that the admin has done nothing about?
09:28:29 <tobiasz> I wouldn't delete that. Neither membership requests or the like
09:28:29 <ghada> they will get deleted. But, I guess, if the admin is that slack...
09:29:12 <tobiasz> the cron job only handles certain notification types, so we can adjust that
09:29:19 <anitsirk> that would be new page access, group message, new forum post. potentially watchlist as well. not sure about feedback because while you can view your feedback, you may not remember where it was placed if you have heaps of pages and thus might want to go through your messages if you remember when feedback was given?
09:29:20 <ghada> ok.
09:29:38 <anitsirk> #idea leave the user messages and delete all the other notifications on a regular basis, that just hold redundant information
09:30:05 <anitsirk> ghada: i would not delete those automatically. some institutions might want to keep them for an audit trails.
09:30:18 <ghada> ok.
09:30:20 <anitsirk> though messages are not great for that. having that in an admin page might be a better idea in the future
09:31:02 <tobiasz> might just be an extra block type for the admin dashboard
09:31:51 <anitsirk> i'd thought of under "bulk user actions" where we have the masquerading so you can see how many times a single user offended
09:32:37 <anitsirk> tobiasz: do you know what you are going to do now? :-)
09:33:17 <tobiasz> nothing so far, the plugin is fine and the bug is open for everybody ;)
09:33:24 <anitsirk> :-)
09:33:42 <tobiasz> any comments on the 60days vs 6 months?
09:34:01 <anitsirk> 60 days seems a bit short
09:34:26 <ghada> 6 months is good.
09:34:34 <nigelcunningham> Configurable?
09:34:39 <tobiasz> leave it with 6 months and update the help text then, it is
09:34:49 <anitsirk> yeah. that's the easiest :-)
09:34:58 <anitsirk> tobiasz: i can do that.
09:35:25 <anitsirk> tobiasz: did you note down all the items that are deleted after 6 months? i can change the help text easily. doesn't require coding :-0
09:35:27 <anitsirk> :-)
09:35:39 <tobiasz> ok, great. We can add the idea for configurability to the bug, right?
09:35:57 <tobiasz> the ones that are deleted so far are in the comments on the bug
09:37:19 <anitsirk> tobiasz: great. i'll add it to the bug.
09:37:40 <tobiasz> ok. In that case I'm finished on that point
09:37:49 <anitsirk> #action anitsirk to adjust the help text to show the correct number of days that certain messages are deleted. See https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/1334576
09:38:07 <anitsirk> then you can continue, tobiasz :-)
09:38:13 <anitsirk> #topic Tobias on question plugin
09:38:31 <tobiasz> I implemented the question feature that was proposed by Totara and we agreed on providing that to Mahara. It's basically ready for testing, there are a few points still open (more sophisticated search for questions, block type, attachments/urls and maybe logging of editing, after the question was opened) but the basic functionality is complete.
09:38:46 <tobiasz> Basically if you are interested in merging that into mahara, it would be great to get it accepted before the feature freeze.
09:39:18 <yuliyabozhko> I think Simon did some reviewing of that patch
09:39:20 <tobiasz> Also, I added likes, which might be moved to a standalone patch
09:41:10 <tobiasz> yep, though I wasn't sure if he had the time to accompany the patch until the merge
09:41:48 <anitsirk> tobiasz: thank you. happy for you to propose it and we'll take a look.
09:41:50 <ghada> do you know the bug number?
09:42:06 <yuliyabozhko> https://reviews.mahara.org/#/c/3406/
09:42:17 <yuliyabozhko> I mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/1326425 :)
09:42:32 <tobiasz> thanks :)
09:42:32 <anitsirk> #info tobiasz mplemented the question feature that was proposed by Totara and we agreed on providing that to Mahara. It's basically ready for testing, there are a few points still open (more sophisticated search for questions, block type, attachments/urls and maybe logging of editing, after the question was opened) but the basic functionality is complete.
09:43:03 <anitsirk> tobiasz: i think in the case of this work because it doesn't depend on existing functionality, a staged implementation would be fine.
09:43:38 <tobiasz> if you want the like-part to be a separate patch, you might have to help me put the dependence into the patch
09:43:54 <tobiasz> ok, thanks
09:44:13 <yuliyabozhko> I can help with dependencies
09:44:22 <tobiasz> ok, great
09:44:51 <yuliyabozhko> yeah, just let me know what's needed :)
09:44:58 <tobiasz> sure, thanks :)
09:45:05 <tobiasz> in that case, I think I'm done
09:45:21 <anitsirk> thank you, tobiasz. anything else from anyone on this?
09:45:32 <yuliyabozhko> nope
09:45:46 <anitsirk> #topic Next meeting and chair
09:46:07 <yuliyabozhko> I think robertl_ deserves a second chance :D
09:46:08 <anitsirk> I was thinking of 14 August same time, same place
09:46:25 <yuliyabozhko> time's good for me
09:46:29 <yuliyabozhko> place too
09:46:33 <robertl_> next time I won't book in leave on the same day :)
09:46:42 <ghada> i'm going to be on holidays...
09:46:45 <anitsirk> that would be a couple of weeks after feature freeze and hopefully give us a better idea of what can be achieved to put into 1.10
09:46:46 <yuliyabozhko> ah... are you on leave?
09:47:14 <robertl_> yep
09:47:29 <ghada> yes. i'm going to be on leave on the 14th
09:48:13 <yuliyabozhko> I am fine with any time/date
09:48:42 <anitsirk> or do we not need a meeting before ui freeze and communicate on gerrit?
09:49:24 <anitsirk> ehm. meant: communicate on gerrit instead
09:49:38 <yuliyabozhko> we can make it a week earlier/later?
09:49:48 <yuliyabozhko> like Aug 7th
09:49:58 <anitsirk> yuliyabozhko: earlier wouldn't work for me
09:50:03 <tobiasz> I'm on vacation until the 10th of August
09:50:13 <yuliyabozhko> hmmm, ok then :) no suggestion from me
09:50:26 <anitsirk> and we won't have had much time to look into all the things that came in right before the freeze
09:51:07 <tobiasz> so what about 21st of August?
09:51:24 <tobiasz> or is that after the rollout?
09:51:33 <anitsirk> no. that's the week of the ui freeze
09:51:45 <anitsirk> i think we don't have to worry much about the freezes for our meeting after all
09:51:55 <anitsirk> because we'll discuss things on gerrit
09:51:57 <ghada> if the 14th is good for everyone else, i don't have to be there.
09:51:58 <anitsirk> right?
09:52:26 <anitsirk> 14th in a way would be good in case someone can take on some more of the reviewing work
09:52:39 <anitsirk> and volunteers here in the meeitng
09:52:40 <anitsirk> meeting
09:52:59 <anitsirk> but other than that, i think the 21st would work as well
09:53:14 <anitsirk> robertl_ and aarowlaptop and rkabalin? any preferences?
09:53:23 <anitsirk> oh and tonyjbutler?
09:53:42 <anitsirk> if not, we'll roll the dice ;-)
09:53:46 <robertl_> 14th is fine so is the 21st
09:53:53 <aarowlaptop> either is fine for me as well
09:54:00 <yuliyabozhko> same for me
09:54:11 <tonyjbutler> both fine for me
09:54:21 <nigelcunningham> And me
09:54:49 <ghada> i can't commit to either - unfortunately.
09:54:52 <nigelcunningham> By the way, "Hi guys".  Nice to meet you all.
09:54:58 <rkabalin> august 7th is fine
09:55:39 <anitsirk> since all can on the 14th and ghada doesn't know for either, i suggest the 14th so we can discuss things in a bigger group before the UI freeze if necessary.
09:56:00 <yuliyabozhko> sounds good
09:56:00 <ghada> i'll try and pop in if I can.
09:56:59 <anitsirk> #info the 35th Developer Meeting will take place on 14 August at 8:00 UTC: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=35th+Mahara+Developer+Meeting&iso=20140814T00
09:57:02 <anitsirk> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=35th+Mahara+Developer+Meeting&iso=20140814T00
09:57:08 <anitsirk> and who wants to chair?
09:57:27 <robertl_> I try and organise myself better and do it
09:57:32 <anitsirk> ghada: thank you. if you can't and have some things, we can discuss them before you go on leave
09:57:38 <anitsirk> thank you, robertl_
09:57:44 <yuliyabozhko> :) awesome
09:57:46 <anitsirk> #info robertl_ will be the chair.
09:57:55 <anitsirk> #topic Any other business
09:57:57 <ghada> anitsirk: sure.
09:59:01 <anitsirk> doesn't look like anyone has anything else.
09:59:07 <anitsirk> going once
09:59:12 <yuliyabozhko> nope, I don't have anything
09:59:14 <anitsirk> going twice
09:59:20 <anitsirk> done.
09:59:39 <anitsirk> thank you all very much for attending and discussing in today's dev meeting. happy programming and see you soon.
09:59:43 <anitsirk> #endmeeting