08:04:33 #startmeeting 08:04:33 Meeting started Thu Jan 23 08:04:33 2014 UTC. The chair is anzeljg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 08:04:33 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 08:04:33 I am here 08:04:35 anzeljg: if i don't have moderator rights, i can't end the meeting ;-) 08:04:37 Please introduce yourselves using #info command, so your introduction will be shown in meeting minutes 08:04:45 #info anzeljg is Gregor Anzelj, developer and translator from Gimnazija Bežigrad, Ljubljana, Slovenia 08:04:50 #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ 08:05:06 #info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols, Moodle HQ, Perth, AU 08:05:13 #info mingard is Jono Mingard, intern at Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ 08:05:31 #info robertl is Robert Lyon, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ 08:05:38 #info aarowlaptop is Aaron Wells at Catalyst IT in Wellington NZ 08:06:00 anybody else? 08:06:15 mingard and NameLess-exe were here just a few minutes ago 08:06:23 huh? 08:06:36 NameLess-exe: can you please introduce yourself for the meeting minutes? 08:06:45 oh ok... 08:06:52 #info NameLess-exe is Leo Xiong, 2014 Catalyst OSA student, Hamilton, NZ 08:07:03 OSA = Open Source Academy 08:07:17 that's everybody then... 08:07:20 #topic Items from last meeting: dajan to gather some information from tutors and ePortfolio assessors to find out their needs in this area 08:07:28 he was one of the three students who improved Mahara last week by fixing bugs. 08:07:41 great. 08:07:57 anzeljg: have you heard from dajan? 08:07:57 back to the topic... 08:08:01 dajan informed me that he would not be able to attend the meeting (family issues). He says hi to all of you... 08:08:17 so moving to next topic... 08:08:29 #topic Items from last meeting: sonn will look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1. 08:08:42 anybody heard anything from sonn? 08:08:46 #chair 08:09:02 aarowlaptop: do you have an update? 08:09:04 anzeljg: Can you run #chair please? I think I've added anitsirk as a chair 08:09:12 #chair 08:09:12 Current chairs: anitsirk anzeljg 08:09:18 Hm, I seem to recall that he did start looking into that 08:09:21 thanx dobedobedoh 08:09:21 thank you, dobedobedoh 08:09:25 :) 08:09:26 but I don't recall that he reached a conclusion 08:09:48 ok. let's put it on the todo list for next meeting then. 08:10:38 #action somebody should look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1 08:10:44 ok then... 08:10:47 moving on 08:10:49 nah. let's leave it with sonn. 08:10:57 #undo 08:10:57 Removing item from minutes: 08:11:09 #action sonn will look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1 08:11:13 :) 08:11:29 #topic Status of Leap2a import (anzeljg) 08:11:58 this came up when I was coding support for user's social profile addresses 08:11:58 hi rkabalin 08:12:03 hi rkabalin 08:12:30 I've successfuly coded the export, but then I realized that Leap2a import isn't working. 08:12:35 what is the status on that? 08:12:36 .. 08:12:50 individual user leap2a import? 08:12:54 yes 08:13:04 It should be working. We tested it quite a bit before the 1.8.0 release 08:13:20 scenario: user eports his/her stuff and tries to import that back (in same site or another site) 08:13:39 it wasn't working for me 08:13:40 Yep, that's the scenario I tested. Haven't tried it lately, but I could give it a try on master.dev.mahara.org right now 08:13:41 does the content have the correct tags or whatever leap2a needs? 08:14:06 hi tobiasz 08:14:13 I could try this one more time and send any error or debug messages if there will be any (but that will happen after the meeting) 08:14:34 anzeljg: is that related to your functionality or in general? 08:14:34 i believe the tags are correct 08:14:36 #info tobiasz is Tobias Zeuch, developer at the KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany 08:14:58 anitsirk: first i've tried that with my functionallity and it wasn't working 08:15:17 Hm, it does seem to be timing out when I try it on master.dev.mahara.org. Maybe there was a regression at some point 08:15:23 then I've tried that without functionality on clean user account and different mahara instance - no luck 08:15:43 oh wait, it finished 08:15:45 hi tobiasz 08:16:00 hi everybody, sorry for joining late 08:16:14 aarowlaptop: i'll check again and i'll let you know. OK? 08:16:21 thanks 08:16:41 Probably there's something in particular in your export that is triggering an unknown bug 08:16:43 anzeljg: if it doesn't work on your instance, it would be great to get the leap2a file that you are using 08:17:02 Yes, quite often it's most handy to have the actual leap2a file that's failing to import 08:17:03 anitsirk: ok, will attach that too 08:17:26 one more question related to import/export and user's social profile addresses 08:17:51 those of you who reviewed my code will know what I'm asking 08:18:05 sorry, haven't had time to look at this feature yet. :-( 08:18:27 if I use IDs instead of aervice names, how will those IDs be exported and mapped back at import stage? 08:18:34 hopefully this makes sense... 08:18:40 yes 08:18:44 that does make sense 08:18:51 ;) 08:19:05 we were talking about using a surrogate key integer "ID" column instead of using the service "name" column as the foreign key 08:19:23 aarowlaptop thanks for the explanation 08:19:31 maybe the best thing would be to include the service URL in the leap2a export file? 08:19:43 and then on import, check to see if there's a service in the import site that has the same URL? 08:19:55 well, currently that is included in the export (will send Leap2a file) 08:20:07 so that means, that I mapped it using service URL? 08:20:17 mapped = map 08:20:23 If the URL of each service is required and expected to be unique, that'd be the best way to do it I think 08:20:44 great idea. haven't thought of it :( 08:20:47 thanks 08:20:51 aarowlaptop: do you know how the licenses work? there it's the same issue i think. 08:21:06 oh yeah, there is a similar issue with licenses 08:21:13 a site can have custom licenses 08:21:14 i'll have a look 08:21:28 and then you face some trouble when you import a leap2a with that license into a different site 08:21:41 and the receiving site may not have a license set up that the user had on the old site, but it will still be displayed 08:21:56 yeah, generally speaking the solution to the license problem would be to export enough information to identify an identical but separately created license on the destination site :) 08:21:58 aarowlaptop: you shouldn't. that was the whole point. 08:22:19 i think it's slightly different, but I will check it out. thanks aarowlaptop and anitsirk 08:22:44 I have a feeling it's displayed as just a URL or an ID or something if you import it into a site without that license, but I can't remember exactly what happens ... 08:23:51 i think this topic is finished 08:23:53 moving on? 08:24:13 anzeljg: do you want to set an action point for yourself? 08:24:13 sure 08:24:33 #topic Profile "General" tab should have better options (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/1258067) (anzeljg) 08:25:03 New version of Europass introduecs some new fields which I would really like to include in mahara core. 08:25:23 I've prepared a mockup #link https://twitter.com/anzeljg/status/426225082000629761/photo/1 08:25:30 what do you think? 08:26:20 would be nice if the admin could configure the fields that are available - not everyone using it will have an occupation/industry and not everyone will be applying for a job ... 08:26:23 looking at the bug description and the issue want to solve, i think it's still too specific for core because not all mahara sites will require these labels. 08:26:29 europass is only used in europe... 08:26:42 Right, so this would be the Content -> Profile -> General tab 08:26:50 yes 08:26:52 a configurable option would be better. that makes it more difficult for the export and import, but it is more adaptable. 08:27:04 those do look like quite portable fields though - not europass specific by any means 08:27:28 configurable field via admin would be best 08:27:30 Do those fields make more sense under Profile, or under Resume? 08:27:35 anitsirk: so you're saying that it should be configure by admin, which fields to show (including occupation/industry)? 08:27:40 but the job references are not applicable to young school students. 08:27:59 anzeljg: yes. maybe even institution admin if you have a multi-tennanted mahara. but definitely site admin. 08:28:31 same with the 'messaging' tab I recon 08:28:41 hmm, what should happen on import if those fields are configurable? 08:28:43 aarowtop: if they are moved under resume, then we should move the entire Gerenal section i think 08:28:58 we have nursing associations that need completely different fields. the ones from europass are not applicable to them. thus, we'd always need a config option. 08:29:07 I suppose you're right about that, anzeljg 08:29:41 the configuration could just be for display/not display so that import still populates the data 08:29:45 I'm not sure about messaging section though. I think it sould stay under Profile 08:30:01 Yeah, Messaging makes more sense under Profile 08:30:08 i would only move the general tab (and rename it) to the resume. not the messaging. 08:30:25 robertl: we are talking to dsplay/not display each field or whole section? 08:30:31 it would make sense to me to move the general tab to resume, but adding another tab there would be pushing it (might require some extra stuff for accessibility) 08:30:32 I agree with robertl, one thing we could do here is add artefact types for the Europass fields, and then add some checkboxes under the artefact configuration to allow the admin to show/hide them 08:30:55 each field - like what aarowlaptop just said 08:31:15 mingard: we could revamp the first resume tab with the cover letter and some general info and include the other info there. 08:31:17 In the long run, we need to make it possible for the admin to actually define new fields... but that would be a bigger effort 08:31:58 and import to create the fields if leap2a has them in 08:32:12 mayb 08:32:13 e 08:32:17 anitsirk: ok, I think that approach would work better 08:32:21 Yeah, the import/export side of fully configurable fields would be the tricky part 08:32:36 oh, and supporting multiple languages 08:32:44 the complicated part to be exact ;) 08:33:05 but, for fields where it's just show/hide, that's not too tough 08:33:16 agree 08:34:42 also agreed - thinking about fully configurable fields, it might work just having an option to remap fields in your old profile into the ones in your new one, although it's more work for the users 08:34:51 #idea move the "General" tab from "Profile" to the "Resume" as the fields apply there more readily. 08:34:58 i'll try to make this then... to move general section from Profile to Resume and as anitsirk pointed out, under Resume's first tabe with coverletter as addtional fieldset (with admin configuration) 08:35:36 #idea Offer more fields and not only Occupation and Industry as these don't apply for everyone. However, since we'll always have people not needing fields, the admin should be able to hide certain fields that don't apply. 08:35:44 sounds good 08:36:16 wouldn't it be better to have those fileds under employment and education, I think they belong there... 08:36:56 true 08:36:58 and name them something like "Education/Employment status" 08:37:14 is it always a status? 08:37:32 Hmm... 08:37:48 i guess it depends on what field names will be possible. 08:37:58 what should these fileds be called then? 08:37:59 seems like they're pretty much another entry in the education and/or employment sections, albeit one that you would want to be particularly visible 08:38:09 so far we have the current mahara ones and the europass ones. we could think of others that might apply and add them in esp. if admin can hide them. 08:38:24 Well, when your resume is displayed to people, it's in a Page 08:38:28 so they should be placed at the top without collapsible fieldset? 08:38:46 i wouldn't place them at the top. that list can get quite long. 08:39:16 so the remaining option is at the bottom? 08:39:48 in regards to mingard's comment about these being visible, which tab they're on doesn't really affect their visibility on a Page. It just affects how the user finds them when entering the data into their own Content section 08:40:37 I guess we do have to decide, when you do the "my whole resume" block, where in the sequence of the block they should go 08:41:19 I meant they seem like they would be covered by an entry in the "Employment history" or "Education history" section - but one that you would want to be highlighted in some way 08:41:33 between profile and education/emplyment history with the opition for users to not show that at all? 08:42:05 individual fields from there need to be selectable like whether you want to show your first name, last name, email address etc. 08:42:32 wasn't there a debate about which resume blocktypes are actually useful/necessary? but yes, displaying them above education/employment history would make the most sense to me 08:43:28 they would be artefacts as they are now. they have to be selectable on individual basis, but grouped somehow at the same time - to be displayed together... 08:45:27 #info when moving the "General" fields to the resume, they would be artefacts as they are now. they have to be selectable on individual basis, but grouped somehow at the same time - to be displayed together... 08:45:34 sounds about right to me. 08:46:03 ok, then i'll try to implement this... when is feature freeze date? 08:46:18 first week of feb. that was going to be my other business ;-) 08:46:25 ok 08:46:27 ;) 08:46:46 anything else for that topic? 08:47:22 not from me 08:48:01 #topic Next meeting and chair 08:48:29 How does march 6th sound? at 20utc? 08:49:05 i won't be available. 08:49:33 end of february then? 08:50:33 anzeljg: the moodle//mahara//moot is on in the last week of february. will be difficult to get those folks online then as the sessions start quite early. 08:50:47 anitsirk thanks 08:50:49 the german one that is. 08:51:10 what about february 20th? 08:51:29 sounds good to me. 08:51:34 works for me 08:51:54 and for me 08:52:22 anybody else? 08:52:25 sounds fine to me 08:52:47 same time same place so dobedobedoh can attend as well? 08:53:16 oh wait. 20 utc doesn't work for dobedobedoh 08:53:16 february 20th doesn't work for me but I can read the log/minutes 08:53:32 any day better for you during that week, tobiasz ? 08:54:06 actually just friday 21 08:54:42 20 UTC or 8 UTC again? 08:54:51 8 UTC doesn't work for me... 08:55:02 on friday 21 I mean... 08:55:44 anitsirk: when will moodle//mahara//moot actually start 08:55:53 25 feb 08:56:04 for me both hours are fine 08:56:20 either works for me either day. 08:56:28 do we have a lot of things to talk about or can we push next developer meeting to the end of march? 08:56:54 i'd be OK with end of march. 08:57:23 aarowlaptop and robertl_ and rkabalin and dobedobedoh and mingard ? 08:57:27 it would be good to have meeting before next release - so late march should be fine 08:57:30 and tobiasz ? 08:57:36 what about march 20? 08:57:42 sure 08:57:45 should be fine for me 08:57:46 anzeljg: no. 08:57:47 march is fine with me 08:57:53 that's our mahara hui conference day. 08:57:57 no time then. ;-) 08:58:04 march 27? 08:58:05 march 19-21 are taken. 08:58:17 27th sounds good. 08:58:32 is it ok for everybody? 08:58:35 yep fine by me 08:58:47 sounds good to me 08:59:02 27th of march fine with me 08:59:15 8utc would be better for dobedobedoh as it would be afternoon instead of middle of the night 08:59:35 OK, so again 8 tuc? 08:59:41 tuc = utc, sorry 08:59:51 fine by me 09:00:15 and me 09:00:17 and me 09:00:30 me also 09:00:31 who would like to chair it? 09:01:14 #info the 31st Mahara Developer Meeting will take place on 27 March 2014 at 8:00 UTC: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=31st+Mahara+Developer+Meeting&iso=20140327T08 09:01:20 anzeljg: i can 09:01:30 anitsirk thanks 09:01:39 you've stoled my line though... 09:01:48 i was preparing that info line ;) 09:01:51 #info anitsirk will chair the 31st Mahara Developer Meeting. 09:02:09 sorry, anzeljg . i thought to help out as you'll need to leave soon. 09:02:28 10 UTC... that's one hour away, but thanks 09:02:47 oh 10 utc. 09:03:00 we'll be done well before then. ;-) 09:03:09 i know now... ;) 09:03:20 #topic Any other business 09:03:26 i have 2 09:03:33 anybody else? 09:03:43 I'll give a quick accessibility update 09:04:05 anitsirk the stage is yours... 09:04:10 I'd like to ask if there is any news about the messenger changes 09:04:10 #info Feature freeze is in the first full week of February, 3-9 February 2014. See https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/6MonthlyCycle 09:04:10 We will do our best to include any features submitted by then in the 1.9 release, but if it turns out that a feature needs a lot of reworking, we might exclude it from the 1.9 release even if it was submitted on time to avoid regressions or the introduction of bugs and getting behind with the release. Our releases are timed and thus, it would get into the next release, which would be October 2014. 09:04:45 tobiasz: i think that anzeljg is working on that with the social media buttons / profiles. 09:04:53 yep 09:04:57 is there an actual date for feature freeze or is it just the end of that week? 09:05:05 mingard: it's in that week. 09:05:14 usually either thursday or friday. 09:05:16 ok, thanks for the info 09:05:25 we leave it a bit vague in case someone needs one more day. ;-) 09:05:33 tobiasz: have a look at https://reviews.mahara.org/#/c/2936/ 09:05:35 I see 09:06:03 any other questions for the feature freeze? 09:06:14 not from me 09:06:53 anitsirk continu with next AOB 09:07:04 #info the first mahara conference in the southern hemisphere will take place in Wellington on 19 and 20 March 2014 followed by a one-day hackfest. Mahara Hui welcomes everyone to New Zealand. Hopefully, some of you can make it. :-) 09:07:20 #link https://maharahui.org.nz 09:07:38 sorry i can't make it. i've always wanted to visit NZ. someday perhaps... 09:07:55 maybe another time, anzeljg 09:08:03 hopefully 09:08:26 that's it from me. 09:08:43 mingard you said you have AOB? 09:09:11 yes, I'll just mention how accessibility work is progressing 09:09:20 great! 09:10:16 in 1.8 accessibility is pretty broken with regards to editing and administration, but thankfully most of those issues were easy to fix and there are already patches merged 09:11:09 #info currently, accessibility is not great for editing and administration, but thankfully most of those issues were easy to fix and there are already patches merged for 1.9. 09:11:38 I'm working on some of the harder stuff (like getting a keyboard-accessible version of the drag-and-drop page editor working) at the moment so Mahara should be fully compliant with WCAG 2.0 level AA (and therefore the accessibility standards of most countries and administrations) in 1.9 09:11:57 woohoo 09:12:10 #info mingard is working on some of the harder stuff (like getting a keyboard-accessible version of the drag-and-drop page editor working) at the moment so Mahara should be fully compliant with WCAG 2.0 level AA (and therefore the accessibility standards of most countries and administrations) in 1.9 09:12:41 as you've probably seen in the newsletter, Julius Serrano (also at Catalyst) and I have made put a summary of the current status on the wiki, and there's a blueprint on Launchpad to track the current status 09:12:42 if you know of a file browser / explorer that is particularly keyboard accessible, please let mingard know. 09:12:48 yes please! 09:13:08 It's been great learning more about accessibility via reviewing the patches 09:13:14 oh, that's why you were sent him that page with the list of filebrowsers 09:13:28 unfortunately, it's not mentioned too frequently whether they are accessible or not 09:13:29 yup 09:13:53 yeah, not much luck there I'm afraid ... at least not with Orca, I might try a few of the better ones with Windows to see if the screen readers there are any better 09:13:59 we are also planning on having a check list / cheat sheet on the wiki for developers to ensure that future patches / features are accessible from the start 09:14:29 yeah, that's a good idea 09:14:31 that is great and will be helpful 09:14:43 yes, that should be available pretty soon 09:14:56 #info accessibility will stay a continued focus and there will be information available on the wiki for developers to ensure that basic accessibility guidelines are followed when fixing bugs and creating new features 09:14:57 #idea the plan is to have a check list / cheat sheet on the wiki for developers to ensure that future patches / features are accessible from the start 09:15:06 #undo 09:15:06 Removing item from minutes: 09:15:46 anything elae? 09:15:51 mingard and julius serrano (our accessibility expert) have been doing awesome work since the beginning of december to bring us up to speed and compliance. 09:16:11 happy to help, it's been really interesting :) 09:16:45 :-) 09:16:53 anzeljg: nothing more from me 09:17:06 that's all I have to say, unless anyone has questions 09:17:12 another *not so serious question*. After 1.9 will there be 1.10 or 2.0? 09:17:22 :) 09:17:24 anzeljg: i'm thinking of 1.10. 09:17:32 Not the first one to ask that question ;) 09:17:34 unless we revamp mahara entirely ;-) 09:17:57 but maybe we should jsut go with full numbers: 8, 9, 10... 09:18:06 yep, that's the current plan. Go to 1.10 on the next release, unless we decide to bite the bullet and do a big revamp 09:18:13 like java? 09:18:30 i'm curious whether we could start a 2.0 branch or something - would be cool to have a revamp at some point in the future 09:18:35 although that might not be the best way about it 09:18:40 firefox and chrome and others do that. or have 13.04 and 13.10 like ubuntu 09:18:48 Yeah, more and more lately I've been thinking a 2.0 might be in order 09:20:08 so basically it isn't decided yet... 09:20:12 :) 09:20:17 anything else? anybody? 09:20:20 well, 6 months to figure it out 09:20:22 nope 09:20:22 I wanted to ask about the messages-to-multiple recipients patch that I commited in november, that ones not included in anzeljgs work, is it? 09:20:42 no. that's different 09:20:56 yes, that's separate. I've been meaning to review it for quite some time now 09:21:05 maybe someone else should take a look at it since I haven't been able to get to it 09:21:54 aarowlaptop: i think you wanted to reveiw it also looking at the solution that angela has been talking about to see if some of that should go in / be merged. 09:22:03 reveiw -> review 09:22:08 Well, there's that aspect to it as well 09:22:50 it would be good if you could take a look though i know you are stretched and robertl won't be available either over the next two weeks. 09:22:55 indeed 09:22:56 I'd actually be more interested on comments on a feature-level first, before talking about actual code 09:22:56 I can take a look at it tomorrow - do a quick review to see if there are big problems 09:23:06 thanks robertl 09:23:13 ok, thanks 09:23:22 Yeah, that's probably the best approach, especially since it's a rather large patch 09:23:34 right, I can look it from that angle 09:23:41 in terms of lines of code 09:24:02 I mean, it's a patch with a lot of lines of code. So, better to look at the functionality first. :) 09:25:05 which also makes sense when talking about integrating Angelas work 09:25:11 yes 09:26:19 anything else? otherwise i'll end this meeting... 09:26:21 ok, another short question about the patch for the watchlist notification, should I do anything to get another review? 09:26:40 https://reviews.mahara.org/#/c/2491/ 09:27:01 tobiasz: which one is the active one? https://reviews.mahara.org/#/q/owner:%22Tobias+Zeuch%22+status:open,n,z 09:27:19 oh sorry. never mind. 09:27:23 there is only one. 09:27:32 a rebase would probably be good. 09:28:02 ok, I'll give it a try 09:28:10 yep - rebase the patch and I'll tryand look at that one too 09:28:16 ok, thanks 09:28:21 Probably the patch just got lost amidst all the others. If we don't respond, feel free to post a comment asking if anyone can take a look at it again. :) 09:28:38 robertl: that would be a good one for stevens to verify 09:28:43 post the comment in gerrit that is? 09:28:52 anitsirk, good idea 09:29:07 Yeah, on the patch is a good place, or here on IRC or the forum 09:29:17 ok, thanks 09:30:04 ok, that's it for me 09:30:16 if that's all... 09:30:38 #endmeeting