07:37:42 #startmeeting 07:37:42 Meeting started Wed May 23 07:37:42 2012 UTC. The chair is elky. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 07:37:42 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 07:38:04 #info anzeljg is Gregor An�elj, Gimnazija Be�igrad, Ljubljana, Slovenia 07:38:15 #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT, NZ 07:38:27 #info sonn Son Nguyen, Catalyst IT, NZ 07:38:27 #info rkabalin_ Ruslan Kabalin - Lancaster University, UK 07:38:31 #info elky is melissa draper, catalyst IT, NZ 07:38:36 #info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols, Lancaster University, UK 07:38:48 #info richardm Richard Mansfield, Catalyst IT 07:38:49 #info hughdavenport` is Hugh Davenport, Catalyst IT, NZ 07:38:50 #info alanmc is Alan McNatty, Catalyst IT, NZ 07:39:22 #info lamiette is Stacey Walker, Catalyst IT Europe 07:39:41 is that everyone? 07:39:58 #topic Items from last meeting: anitsirk to update the roadmap 07:40:29 #info the update of the roadmap files with links to the blueprints is done 07:40:50 #link Agenda: https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/2012-05-23 07:42:14 anitsirk, next item? 07:42:34 #topic Items from last meeting: dajan to raise appropriate issues in the tracker 07:42:43 BTW: for those who haven't been here for a long time, please put a ".." in a separate line if you have text that is very long and needs to stretch over multiple lines 07:43:01 dajan isn't here I don't think, anyone know if that was done? 07:43:04 elky: what was that about again/ 07:43:05 ? 07:43:10 dajan might have already finished that 07:43:32 i'm not sure, i'm just following the agenda :) 07:43:37 moving on then 07:43:48 #topic anzeljg To put together a quick wiki page with some information (possibly code too) 07:43:54 Sorry, but I haven't done that yet... 07:43:58 I had troubles with using/creating custom Pieform element to give users abilitiy to select files to include in page/view when they drag and drop block to it's position in view/page. 07:44:03 It worked for single folder, but wanted to create filemanager of some sort, to allow navigating through filders and sub-folders. 07:44:08 Finally found Datatables plugin for jQuery (http://datatables.net/), but there are License compatibility questions/issues I want to ask/raise later... 07:44:14 Anyway, now I have to integrate this into custom Pieform element and test if it works, and then the plugin (initial version) should be completed. Hopefully till Mahara UK 2012 Conference as I want to present the plugin there... 07:44:15 .. 07:44:30 anzeljg, is that the licence thing you were asking about earlier today? 07:44:35 yep 07:44:51 cool 07:45:15 #topic Mahara reviewer applications 07:45:33 alan's up first :) 07:45:52 alanmc: can you please put in the link to your wiki page? 07:45:54 I don't know how these go, never seen one happen 07:45:55 It seems the wiki is down too by the way 07:45:59 (and the others up for review as well) 07:46:06 what? i just accessed it 07:46:07 dobedobedoh, i have it up 07:46:10 https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/User:Alanmc 07:46:13 wait... no it' sjust me 07:46:29 *snigger* 07:46:51 http://meetbot.mylittleproject.co.uk/mahara-dev/2011/mahara-dev.2011-06-29-19.35.log.html#l-310 -< that's what we did last time 07:47:15 #link https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/User:Alanmc 07:47:40 #info: alanmc reviewer application 07:47:52 #info: sonn1 reviewer application 07:48:00 #info: elky reviewer application 07:48:16 #link https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/User:Ngson2000 07:48:45 #link https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/User:Melissadraper 07:49:28 only current reviewers can vote on the applications. that are as per richardm 's extracted list: http://paste.dollyfish.net.nz/4b8f4a: richardm, lamiette, hughdavenport`, rkabalin_, dobedobedoh, bug, lordp, danp 07:50:07 i'll count votes so there's no way elky sees them as chair as she is up as reviewer as well. ;-) 07:50:18 and hopefully, we won't have a fire alarm again as last time. 07:50:24 darn, there goes my evil plan 07:50:30 muhahaha 07:50:32 heh 07:50:41 so we have 5 out of 8 present today 07:51:07 that's majority 07:51:14 #info: dobedobedoh said last time "consensus decision rules, with those at the meeting entitled to vote" 07:51:45 so three votes needed 07:51:47 do current reviewers have any questions for the applicatants? 07:52:25 none from me (well nothing sensible) 07:52:32 https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Code_Review actually details the "Becoming a Reviewer" 07:52:32 How did they came accross Mahara? :) 07:52:57 I'll start .. 07:53:07 just in few words 07:53:17 Kinda looking for a problem to solve really .. kinda back-to-front ;) 07:53:17 oh, alanmc is verbose today ;-) 07:53:51 I was seconded for bug squishing for 1.4, and got sucked in :) 07:54:06 It's a really nice project to work on. 07:54:10 alanmc: ok, the same way as me then 07:54:24 bug fixing for master 07:55:00 rkabalin_: yes .. I hear a lot of positive things from 2 hand but would love to be closer to the end users .. so that changes can be appreciated 07:55:38 alanmc: the mobile stuff you do is very much appreciated among users. also you responding to their queries. 07:55:55 thanks, no more questions from me 07:56:01 anitsirk: a field trip is overdue :) 07:56:09 hehe 07:56:38 question from me: If you had to implement one new feature in mahara to improve the platform, what would it be? 07:57:05 We have to pick just one? :( 07:57:06 nice question dobedobedoh! 07:57:08 dobedobedoh: that is a sensible one :) 07:57:20 dobedobedoh: my preference would be to review theming/layout to work on wider arrange of devices 07:57:27 it can be an existing feature in development, or something fresh and new 07:57:28 multiple language 07:57:37 sonn1: what do you mean by that? 07:57:41 sonn1: interesting? 07:57:56 * dobedobedoh guesses multilang 07:58:07 yes 07:58:17 | more 07:58:25 in what sense? more lang packs? easier access to the interface translation? automatic translation of the portfolio?... 07:58:43 EnglishAustralian 07:58:44 more language packs 07:58:54 can display in different languages 07:58:56 ah okay, not what I had in mind ;) 07:59:20 translation feature 07:59:28 and so on 07:59:54 I'd love to see improvements to the accessibility. 07:59:55 sonn1 and i had a discussion about support for translations of user content 07:59:58 we don't have that yet 08:00:15 elky: Do you have anything specific in mind. One specific change? 08:00:31 that would be interesting. also the ability to store your CV in multiple languages (idea from Klaus and team in Austria) 08:00:59 richardm: it is kindda implemented for showing Europass stuff in different languages... 08:01:13 maybe in that direcion? 08:01:14 ah, nice 08:01:53 not everything is translatable, but majority 08:01:58 we were specifically thinking the first priority would be stuff like the homepage content 08:01:58 dobedobedoh, vision-impaired friendly theming and settings that help users adjust to their specific accomodations 08:02:16 eg: high-contrast theme with configurable text size 08:02:59 and i think we could do with making sure the entire site is able to be keyboard driven 08:03:14 #idea from reviewer applicant alanmc for new mahara feature: review theming/layout to work on wider arrange of devices 08:03:25 (that's all of my questions) 08:03:43 back 08:03:59 #idea from reviewer applicatant sonn1 (and richardm) for new mahara feature: support for translation of user content and homepage content 08:04:34 #idea from reviewer applicant elky for new mahara feature: improvements to accessibility, e.g. vision-impaired friendly theming and settings that help users adjust to their specific accomodations 08:04:55 any other questions? richardm, lamiette or hughdavenport`? 08:05:00 nothing from me 08:05:04 none from me 08:05:16 elky: curious about the keyboard driven .. could that be as simple as an audit of say use of accesskey etc to be able to 'make it work' .. anything tangible? 08:05:17 non thanks 08:05:29 then let's move to the voting, shall we? 08:05:31 (I did that a few years ago) 08:05:37 alanmc, yep. it'd make your job a lot easier too 08:05:52 all of you who can vote... 08:06:23 sounds like a plan 08:06:26 please say "#agreed for [nickname of applicatant] to become Mahara reviewer" (without the quotes) 08:06:28 dobedobedoh: cool ... elky yeah it's always a battle with latest jQuery foo and being able to support accessibility .. I'm not super flash on that - it's easy to forget 08:07:20 #agreed for elky to become a Mahara reviewer 08:07:27 #agreed for alanmc to become a Mahara reviewer 08:07:37 #agreed for sonn1 to become a Mahara reviewer 08:07:41 #agreed for alanmc to become Mahara reviewer 08:07:46 #agreed for elky to become a Mahara reviewer 08:07:54 #agreed for elky to become Mahara reviewer 08:08:00 #agreed for alanmc to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:05 #agreed for sonn1 to become Mahara reviewer 08:08:10 #agreed for elky to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:11 #agreed for sonn1 to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:15 #agreed for alanmc to become Mahara reviewer 08:08:17 #agreed for alanmc to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:22 #agreed for sonn1 to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:26 #agreed for elky to become a Mahara reviewer 08:08:31 #agreed for sonn1 to become Mahara reviewer 08:08:41 ok. i think that's all. let me count... 08:09:17 #agreed: elky to become Mahara reviewer (5 out of 5 votes present) 08:09:39 #agreed: alanmc to become Mahara reviewer (5 out of 5 votes present) 08:09:59 #agreed: sonn1 to become Mahara reviewer (5 out of 5 votes present) 08:10:07 congratulations, new reviewers 08:10:16 * alanmc is pleased he didn't get asked about how many spaces for indents and nested curly braces 08:10:36 thanks 08:10:41 the reason behind adding having new reviewers is to lessen the load on the existing ones as - to be honest - most reviewers on the list don't review much. ;-) 08:10:57 treu 08:11:01 sorry to be so blunt. 08:11:28 anitsirk: start the 12m counter eh 08:11:31 it would be great if the workload of reviewing were spread more widely so that some people don't just do reviews, i think. 08:11:32 ok, everyone ready for the next topic? 08:11:41 alanmc: he? 08:11:42 yes 08:12:27 #topic Discuss/decide on style guidelines for CSS https://reviews.mahara.org/#/c/1098/ Melissa/Hugh 08:12:37 ohai 08:13:08 So yeh, for the coding guidelines, we have guidelines for php, and a link down the bottom of the wiki page for JS 08:13:12 but nothing for CSS 08:13:13 Ok, hugh and I had a bit of a disagreement yesterday about whether to let some inconsistant css code in :) 08:13:34 so we figured it should be brought up/discussed/mandated 08:13:39 I submitted some code for theming that one of our designers had done 08:13:46 and it had lots of TAB's 08:13:55 so i replaced with spaces, as per coding guidelines 08:13:58 tabs and spaces in the same declaration :( 08:14:06 though, in the same block, what elky said ^^ 08:14:32 is there a csslint or equiv? 08:14:34 I'm still pretty sure i was more right. 08:14:59 alanmc: that would only check for validity, this is about style mainly 08:15:03 #link http://csslint.net/ 08:15:17 I think we should also consider running css through a cssoptimiser 08:15:24 but it probably would be good to hook that up to the jenkins stuff :D 08:15:31 #info CSS has most often tabs and was replaced with spaces as per coding guidelines. what shall be done about it in the future? 08:15:46 #idea: run css through cssoptimiser (dobedobedoh) 08:15:48 dobedobedoh: you said what I meant 08:15:55 :) 08:16:01 #idea: make a hook in jenkins (hughdavenport`) 08:16:04 I'd be keen on putting it in the jenkins stuff so it only complains about new lines being added 08:16:05 yeh, i would like that 08:16:10 I'm more thinking about live optimisation 08:16:25 If we only optimise on core code, there's no benefit to third-party themes 08:16:36 we also need to fix the heck out of what we have, which as francois pointed out, is quite messy 08:16:55 Perhaps we shoudl do this as part of the skins work and get anzeljg on board 08:17:10 dobedobedoh: do you have ref for that? 08:17:33 what we could do, is run an optimizer over what we have, then stick to ONE style from here on out 08:17:35 #idea make it part of skins (dobedobedoh) 08:17:56 but it also needs to fit into the workflow of designers as they often design on different projects but use the same syntax etc. 08:18:01 cant' see a blueprint for skins 08:18:12 there isn't 08:18:16 In Moodle, all CSS can be passed through cssoptimiser at request time 08:18:16 i don't think anzeljg has written one yet 08:18:18 #idea run an optimizer over what we have, then stick to ONE style from here on out (hugh) 08:18:41 yeah ideally we'd find an easy fix for the editors Evonne, etc. use 08:18:47 dobedobedoh, do you mean like a minifier? 08:18:49 So it doesn't matter what the style looks like in the file, as it's optimised and minimized as required 08:18:52 dobedobedoh: 2 different ideas surely.. one is developer tidyness the other is servers 08:18:52 yes 08:18:57 nope 08:19:01 cssoptimiser is a minifier ;0 08:19:16 #info cssoptimiser is a minifier 08:19:21 yes .. but lint / tab-spacing is prettifying 08:19:24 for dev 08:19:44 yes 08:19:47 but I think we shoudl do both 08:19:57 +1 08:20:00 IMHO, we should have full and expanded CSS (with spaces) 08:20:02 and comments 08:20:15 but shouldn't serve the full commented version to clients unless they're debugging 08:20:16 #info lint/ tab-spacing is for readability 08:20:45 yeh, i would like both 08:20:58 we already ship minified js for most third party stuff 08:21:04 don't think we do it for core iirc 08:21:05 dobedobedoh: so what you're saying is that the css styles would get minimised when requested from server? 08:21:09 We shoudl also do the same for our JS 08:21:11 yes 08:21:24 it'd certainly cut load for sites that don't have a caching layer 08:21:38 they can be cached on the server of course 08:21:56 BRB 08:22:16 dobedobedoh: implementation wise (in terms of say 1.6 Mahara release) is that optimisation packaged as sample web-server config, how would you do that (or is that a discussion for some other time) 08:22:19 people using shared hosting with silly bandwidth limits don't necessarily have the resource to do their own caching though 08:22:27 would we need to introduce some kind of build process? 08:22:28 it's done in php, not on the web server 08:22:35 #info: minified JavaScript is already shipped for most third-party code 08:22:35 dobedobedoh: oh ok 08:23:10 It's not a small task either - you've got to consider how to handle changes to CSS well 08:23:18 Moodle for example has a cssrev 08:23:26 btw, this is all new in moodle core 08:23:34 you mean for 2.3? 08:23:37 yeah 08:24:03 but we can (and should) continue to share in this respect 08:24:07 should we then wait and see how moodle fares? 08:24:15 possibly wise ;) 08:24:23 #info moodle has cssoptimisation at request time, and a cssrev for changes 08:24:26 it won't be enabled by default for a bit 08:24:42 sounds interesting ... dynamically parsing static content ;) 08:24:42 they've had js optimisation for some time, and perhaps we should look at that too 08:24:45 #info new in moodle 2.3, wont be on by default for a while 08:25:17 js optimisation has some good client performance benefits 08:26:03 js is not 100% static for sure 08:26:09 Among those products that do both CSS and JS minifying are #link http://code.google.com/p/minify/ and #link http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/compressor/ 08:26:22 I'm back 08:26:43 does the bot pick up inline #link? 08:26:53 It should do yes 08:27:00 cool 08:27:26 Ok, Shall we put this down for next meeting too and let people mull it over for a bit? 08:27:43 good plan ;) 08:28:27 #action will continue css discussion next meeting 08:28:46 #topic License compatibility (anzeljg) 08:28:52 Have had some questions/concerns regarding using third party code licensed under different licences when creating new plugins for Mahara (and I wanted to use some already implemented solutions as a part of my plugins). 08:28:56 Especially wanted to know if the Modified BSD or 3-clause BSD and MIT licences are compatible with GPL v3. 08:29:01 Had the discussion with anitsirk some hours ago... 08:29:06 Then elky kindly provided this resource: 08:29:10 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#Software_License_List 08:29:14 and I think we should include it (or at least the link to it) somewhere on Mahara wiki - possibly Developer documentation, writing plugins? 08:29:15 .. 08:29:18 btw: meetbot mahara seems to be up again 08:29:32 anzeljg: that sounds great. 08:30:03 so the page elky pointed to said that the BSD (3-clause) license and MIT license are compatible with GPL v3 or later 08:30:22 i understand it in that manner, yes 08:30:57 anzeljg: then i guess the only thing is to make sure that you ship the third-party code with the original license in your plugin (you might have done that already for other things). 08:31:07 yep 08:31:11 :-) 08:31:45 there is that link, and one on the gnu and fsf pages that show a list of licenses, basically most gpl-compatible are compatible with gpl3, except gpl2 iirc 08:31:56 and that is what we care about 08:32:15 It's worth noting that francois is a bit of a licencing nerd and would probably check things over for compliance if we emailed and asked nicely 08:32:24 there is the list on the freesoftware project, but it doesn't say explicity if it is compatible with GPL3 08:32:30 as i said: it would be a good thing to have thoose links somwhere handy - on wiki... 08:32:46 #info the gnu and fsf pages show a list of licenses, basically most gpl-compatible are compatible with gpl3, except gpl2 iirc 08:32:56 #info ^ said hugh. 08:33:20 asking francois nicely is a great idea... 08:34:14 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses was the link that fmarier had pointed us once in a pizza talk at catalyst 08:34:43 is his talk up anywhere public? 08:34:49 nope. 08:34:53 just internal 08:35:03 as far as i know 08:35:10 flick him an email, i'm sure he wouldn't mind sharing it openly (if he hasn't already) 08:35:23 and that is the link i was thinking of 08:35:33 thankx 08:35:52 ok, we're on an hour now, so lets move on. 08:36:24 elky: we missed a topic, but i guess it's because Tmirante is not here. is it? 08:36:37 anitsirk, yes i left it until now in case he showed up 08:36:54 #topic Tmirante had an item: Search 2.0 engine plugin possible time schedule request 08:37:12 does anyone know anything more about this? 08:37:28 no. 08:37:36 #info tmirante isn't available, will leave on agenda for next meeting. 08:38:05 #topic Next meeting and Chair 08:38:34 #info One month from now is weds 20th 08:39:00 i don't think that's good because it's mahoodlemoot FR 08:39:24 so dajan and potentially others will be busy (note to self: gotta start preparing the presentation at some point) 08:39:45 what about the week after? 08:39:58 that's still a few days away from mahara uk12 08:40:11 #info 20th clashes with moodlemoot fr 08:40:19 week after is fine 08:40:45 27th works for me 08:40:55 fine for me too 08:40:55 and me 08:41:24 richardm: are you ok? 08:41:27 yep 08:41:37 it would be morning for us in NZ 08:42:37 would it be 20:00 UTC again (21:00 Brighton, 22:00 for anzeljg)? 08:42:46 8:00 for NZ 08:42:53 all go 08:42:56 od 08:42:56 i think i will not be able to attend so don't mind me 08:43:19 #info Next meeting will be 27th june 2000 UTC 08:43:20 21:00 for Brighton! 08:43:35 is that too late, lamiette ? 08:43:50 hopefully not :) 08:44:01 no too early .. she'll still be selling seashells on the seashore 08:44:33 \heh 08:44:37 can you say that 20 times in fast, alanmc ? 08:44:59 i'm fine with the proposal 08:45:00 my verbosity takes time I'm afraid 08:45:09 I say we put him to the test next zoodoo 08:45:24 by say, do you mean irc say? 08:45:28 because that is easy 08:45:30 test zoodoo? :D 08:45:32 copy paste ftw 08:45:59 rkabalin_: zoodoo is our annual christmas party at the wellington zoo 08:46:01 elky: at least you're not sending me to the lions 08:46:17 tigers instead? 08:46:17 #topic Any Other Business? 08:46:29 i have one 08:46:31 ehm. there was only 1 or 2 oks for that time 08:46:35 i have 2 topics 08:46:36 anitsirk: I know, there was an alternative meaning 08:46:43 wait 08:46:49 have we decided on chair 08:46:56 oh no, we haven't 08:46:57 nope. elky, please #undo 08:47:01 #undo 08:47:01 Removing item from minutes: 08:47:22 I can chair next meeting 08:47:28 cool. 08:47:42 #info rkabalin_ to chair 08:48:09 i guess now we can move on 08:48:24 if no one objects, yes 08:48:34 who objects against a volunteer? :-D 08:48:40 #topic Any Other Business? 08:48:57 yeah i just wanted to mention for those who don't know, i'll be leaving catalyst on 30 June 08:48:58 only more proactive another volunteer :) 08:49:19 oh no 08:49:24 #info richardm is leaving catalyst on june 30 :( 08:49:30 yep 08:49:30 :( 08:49:33 :(( 08:49:34 do you go to Mozilla? 08:49:38 HA 08:49:58 rkabalin_: no, i'm going to a little place called dragonfly, still in wellington 08:49:59 I've been waiting for someone to ask that 08:50:26 :D 08:50:40 so it's just as well we have some more reviewers :) 08:50:44 good luck richardm :) 08:50:50 thanks rkabalin_ 08:51:13 you'll be sorely missed, richardm 08:51:28 Good luck Richard 08:51:36 thanks! 08:51:38 Sorry that you'll be leaving 08:51:39 good luck! veliko sreče! 08:52:11 good luck! chuc may man (Vietnamese) 08:52:28 thanks guys 08:52:45 is it far from Catalyst house? 08:52:46 He still has to show up for next meeting yet :P 08:53:03 yeah, i can definitely make it to the next meeting 08:53:34 it's just around the corner from catalyst, about 1-2 minutes walk actually 08:53:37 richardm: who will take over your place/work? 08:54:00 anzeljg: well i hope everyone will take on a little bit 08:54:12 what you will be doing in dragonfly apart of teaching dragons to fly? 08:54:29 ok I thought of you as "man in charge", who will be that from now on? 08:54:51 anzeljg, that's still undecided 08:55:00 oh, ok 08:55:03 rkabalin_: it's partly data analysis, but still mostly web development 08:55:33 php? 08:55:40 richardm: whats the connection again - your uni supervisor or something works there? 08:56:10 no i'll have to learn R, and the web stuff is python/django 08:56:20 got a lot to learn! 08:56:33 that is really great! 08:56:34 * anzeljg loves python... 08:56:37 R is all good .. 08:57:00 and it had won a NZ Open Source Award 2 years ago 08:57:01 yeah, i'm looking forward to it actually 08:57:05 richardm, i think alanmc just volunteered to tutor you :P 08:57:42 hi iarenaza 08:57:45 hi 08:58:03 anyway, not to cut things short, but anitsirk you had some items? 08:58:07 yep 08:58:12 number 1: newsletter 08:58:32 #info the next mahara newsletter will be published on 1 July 2012. please submit your stories to newsletter@mahara.org 08:58:53 as usual ^ -- ^ don't wait until the last minute, but submit early. anything that you would like that deals with mahara. 08:59:16 anzeljg: did you get permission from that guy to republish part of his text in the newsletter and then link to his article? 08:59:24 it would be good to include that in the july newsletter 08:59:30 no answer from him, sorry 08:59:43 or we could make up a short text and link to the article. that would be fine, too 08:59:44 I might write something if time permits... 08:59:58 just 100-150 words, anzeljg. that's enough 09:00:05 ok, will try 09:00:07 oh iarenaza is clining himself. 09:00:15