19:33:27 <anitsirk> #startmeeting
19:33:27 <maharameet> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 19:33:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is anitsirk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:33:27 <maharameet> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:33:34 <anitsirk> Good morning, afternoon and evening. Welcome to the 14th Mahara developer meeting.
19:33:34 <anitsirk> Please state your IRC nickname and name (and organization you work for and location) with a #info at the beginning of the line.
19:33:35 <anitsirk> #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
19:33:58 <dobedobedoh> 'info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols - LUNS Limited, Lancaster, UK
19:34:00 <richardm> #info richardm is Richard Mansfield, Catalyst IT, Wgtn NZ
19:34:00 <dobedobedoh> #info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols - LUNS Limited, Lancaster, UK
19:34:06 <rkabalin1> #info rkabalin is Ruslan Kabalin, LUNS Ltd., Lancaster, UK
19:34:11 <hugh_home> #info hugh_home is Hugh Davenport, Catalyst IT, Wgtn NZ
19:34:48 <anitsirk> hi gerry_. we just started with the introductions, please state your name and location prefixed with #info
19:35:11 <anitsirk> As we are all busy, I'd like to propose that we limit our meeting to a maximum of 2 hours. With only 3 big agenda items that might seem like a lot. Therefore, let's see if we can tackle everything even in about 1 hour allowing about 20 min for each of the big items. I'll keep an eye on the watch.
19:35:22 <anitsirk> We didn't have any action items open from our last meeting. So we can go right into the new items. :-)
19:35:23 <John_____> #info John Pace University, NY
19:35:25 <gerry_> #ino Gerry Pauline, Pace University, Mgr, Applications Development
19:35:49 <anitsirk> Hi John_____ and gerry_ great to see you here. :-)
19:35:59 <anitsirk> Please keep in mind that when you have a long statement broken up over several lines, please put .. on a separate line when you are done.
19:36:02 <anitsirk> ..
19:36:18 <anitsirk> as elky is not here yet, i think, we'll start with richardm
19:36:20 <anitsirk> #topic Freeze date for the 1.5 release (richardm)
19:36:26 <anitsirk> go ahead, richardm
19:36:48 <richardm> So we proposed 1 Feb at the last meeting for the date when we stop putting new features in for 1.5
19:37:34 <anitsirk> #idea: feature freeze for mahara 1.5 (not release date!) on february 1, 2012
19:37:58 <richardm> Does anyone have any objections to that?
19:38:10 <dobedobedoh> Seems fine to me
19:38:18 <anitsirk> hello Beth_ :-)
19:38:26 <richardm> It's not really supposed to be a hard date, exactly, we can still put through most of what's in the pipeline
19:38:37 <dobedobedoh> that's today for you guys?
19:38:56 <richardm> Yeah
19:39:01 <rkabalin1> I agree, freexing on Feb 1st is fine with me
19:39:07 <Beth_> #info Beth from Pace University, NY
19:39:13 <richardm> I don't think we'd be looking at branching yet
19:39:41 <richardm> More that people keep new features in their own branches for a while & stop putting new large features into gerrit
19:40:03 <richardm> We still have quite a few bugs to fix as well
19:40:05 <dobedobedoh> It's a shame we have't gotten more done on the unit testing, but most of the infrastructure is in place for doing so in the future
19:40:26 <rkabalin1> hmmm, why not branching freeze?
19:40:53 <richardm> well we could do that, but it's easier if we can fix the remaining bugs on one branch
19:41:10 <rkabalin1> which will allow not to restrict master from any sort of features
19:41:20 <richardm> Yeah when a new feature is imminent, we'll have to branch anyway
19:41:40 <anitsirk> are you currently working on any features, dobedobedoh and rkabalin1 that you'd like to get into 1.5?
19:41:55 <rkabalin1> freezing by branching is a good practice IMHO, for 1.4 fmarier created the branch AFAIK
19:41:56 <richardm> fmarier made a list of bugs he thought should definitely go in, and others that could be delayed to 1.6
19:42:22 <dobedobedoh> no - nothing at present
19:42:29 <anitsirk> richardm: are these the three bugs that are on the agenda?
19:42:44 <richardm> yeah https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/2012-01-31
19:43:06 <rkabalin1> I have been working on that user icons enhancement, but not sure if I will complete it soon
19:43:24 <richardm> I haven't had a good look through them yet, but there are many more bugs than that for 1.5, so i assume he just listed big features
19:43:39 <anitsirk> yes, looks like it.
19:43:49 <dobedobedoh> IIRC they're to upgrade third-party libs
19:44:41 <dobedobedoh> I did find it slightly frustrating waiting for MOODLE_22_STABLE to appear when 2.2 came out in moodle, but I survived, and I'm not working on anything mahara-wise atm
19:46:04 <anitsirk> richardm: you said it doesn't have to be a hard date. would there be a timeframe then for when there'll be a hard date so that work can begin on the release candidate or is that not necessary?
19:46:04 <rkabalin1> The one with crypt algorithm should definitely go to 1.5, it is reviewed and all green, no idea why hugh_home have not committed it yet (I am about bug #843568)
19:46:06 <maharabot> Launchpad bug 843568 in mahara "Stored passwords with a stronger hash algorithm" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/843568 - Assigned to Hugh Davenport (hugh-catalyst)
19:46:46 <richardm> anitsirk: I'm thinking we could save a bit of hassle by knocking a few more bugs on the head in the next few days, then branching after that
19:47:10 <hugh_home> ah that one, i thought one of them was only +1, so was waiting for someoen else to look at it
19:47:13 <hugh_home> checking now
19:47:16 <anitsirk> a few days sounds good. :-)
19:47:25 <richardm> rkabalin1: Cool, let's put it in, not sure why fmarier put it on his list
19:47:57 <richardm> Personally I think most of the things that are done or almost done should go in 1.5
19:49:00 <anitsirk> are we then agreed that we have the feature freeze on february 1, 2012 (let's make it 00:00 UTC) and that it is a soft one with a few extra days to finish features that are almost done?
19:49:38 <richardm> Yep, and everyone needs to check the status of their favorite bugs on the tracker
19:49:54 <hugh_home> sounds good
19:50:30 <anitsirk> #action everyone check the status on their favorite tracker items to see if they can still be included in 1.5 before the freeze
19:50:32 <dobedobedoh> I'd really quite like #920141 to hit 1.5.0 so that we can write UTs for 1.5.1 and 1.6 from the start
19:50:38 <dobedobedoh> but I've not had enough time to properly look atit
19:50:44 <dobedobedoh> sorry, bug 920141
19:50:46 <maharabot> Launchpad bug 920141 in mahara "Remove tests entry from .gitignore" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920141 - Assigned to Andrew Nicols (dobedobedoh)
19:50:47 <dobedobedoh> sorry, bug #920141
19:51:42 <rkabalin1> May be we need to focus on revision these days, to complete at least those things that are +1 in gerrit
19:51:57 <richardm> dobedobedoh: just have a look at it in the next few days, i think it'd be good to go in too
19:52:16 <dobedobedoh> richardm: cool
19:52:30 <anitsirk> rkabalin1: yes, getting things finished in the reviews would be great.
19:52:46 <anitsirk> would you have time to help there?
19:53:01 <richardm> dobedobedoh: it's already in gerrit :)
19:53:04 <rkabalin1> perhaps :)
19:54:14 <anitsirk> so i guess it is also: go through the reviews and see which ones you can review that are already close to finish.
19:54:51 <hugh_home> good idea
19:54:55 <anitsirk> #action: everyone check the status of the items already in review and help with reviewing them to get them ready for 1.5
19:55:40 <anitsirk> back to my earlier question: are we agreed to have the soft freeze in a few hours? only hugh_home voiced his +1 i think.
19:56:26 <hugh_home> would be noon our time right?
19:56:41 <anitsirk> ehm 1 p.m. i think
19:56:44 <hugh_home> maybe a bit longer, so we have time to do status checking? and a few reviews?
19:57:08 <anitsirk> would that be necessary if it is more of a soft freeze that richardm suggested?
19:57:10 <dobedobedoh> would 5pm kiwi time work better for you guys?
19:57:12 <richardm> yeah i think it's still a bit early to decide on the hard date, but maybe we should aim for 1 week's time?
19:57:26 <hugh_home> oh, soft freeze is fbm
19:57:39 <anitsirk> richardm: sounds good to me
19:57:52 <rkabalin1> richardm: 1 week is fine
19:59:17 <anitsirk> last chance to object ;-)
19:59:46 <anitsirk> #agreed soft feature freeze for mahara 1.5 on february 1, 2012 (00:00 UTC) and hard freeze is planned for february 8, 2012 to give a few extra days to finish features that are almost done and to go through the items already in review
20:00:06 <anitsirk> alright. richardm do you want to continue with your next item?
20:00:22 <richardm> sure
20:00:24 <anitsirk> #topic MNet removal from Moodle 2.3 (richardm)
20:00:47 <richardm> this is really something fmarier wanted discussed
20:00:57 <anitsirk> but he can't be here today
20:01:03 <dobedobedoh> From what I understand, it's not actually going to happen in the way that Martin originally suggested
20:01:15 <richardm> we're not going to have webservices in 1.5, so no mnet replacement will be available
20:01:59 <anitsirk> but web services would still be available as plugin for 1.5, right?
20:02:11 <richardm> dobedobedoh: so the next moodle won't have mnet completely removed?
20:02:29 <dobedobedoh> correct
20:02:37 <anitsirk> ah that's good news.
20:02:39 <richardm> anitsirk: yes, it's already a plugin for 1.5, but it's not able to be a replacement for mnet yet
20:02:58 <dobedobedoh> At least, that's the way I understand it - this man may know otherewise
20:02:58 <anitsirk> dobedobedoh: have you been talking to martin about mnet?
20:02:58 * mudrd8mz yawns
20:03:14 <dobedobedoh> Not martin, but it came up when I was working on some mnet bugs a while ago
20:03:34 <anitsirk> hi mudrd8mz
20:03:40 <dobedobedoh> murdd8mz: we're discussing the impending doom of mnet (https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/2012-01-31)
20:03:43 <mudrd8mz> hi everybody. I'm David Mudrak from Moodle HQ. I've been playing with MNet in Moodle for a while
20:04:01 * mudrd8mz rapid reading the page
20:04:04 <anitsirk> #info mudrd8mz is David Mudrak from Moodle HQ
20:04:06 <dobedobedoh> http://meetbot.mahara.org/mahara-dev/2012/mahara-dev.2012-01-31-19.33.log.txt - may give some more info
20:04:52 <richardm> mudrd8mz: fmarier just wanted to suggest we don't delay the next mahara release to rush in a replacement for mnet
20:05:23 <richardm> instead we leave it for the release after, and try to do a more complete job :)
20:05:50 <mudrd8mz> what's the suggested milestone for the release?
20:05:54 <anitsirk> #idea finish mahara 1.5 with mnet and then look for a replacement after the release
20:06:20 <richardm> yep that's the plan
20:07:15 <dobedobedoh> mudrd8mz: We're going into soft freeze tomorrow, and hard freeze is planned for 1 week
20:07:30 <dobedobedoh> 1.6 wouldn't be out for another 6-9 months is my guess?
20:07:52 <mudrd8mz> oh, ok. no need to delay it just because of MNet, for sure
20:07:58 <anitsirk> something like that. if we look into mnet removal that timeframe might even be tight.
20:08:10 <richardm> it might delay a few sites upgrading their moodles straight away, but i don't think it's a big deal compared to the moodle->moodle problems people will have
20:08:26 <anitsirk> mudrd8mz: do you have any more info on mnet in moodle 2.3?
20:08:37 <mudrd8mz> from what I know from Moodle road map, MNet replacement is not really #1 issue. Although Jérôme Mouneyrac from Moodle HQ is the officer in charge for web services in Moodle and he might know better what the strategy for replacement is.
20:09:25 <mudrd8mz> AFAIK a solution based on OAuth2 or something similar is considered
20:09:50 <anitsirk> #info mnet replacement is not #1 issue for Moodle HQ but Jérôme Mouneyrac from Moodle HQ, the officer in charge for web services, may know more.
20:10:09 <mudrd8mz> Moodle is not going to drop MNet without having a working solution for Mahara integration available, for sure
20:10:32 <anitsirk> #info by mudrd8mz: Moodle is not going to drop MNet without having a working solution for Mahara integration available, for sure
20:11:14 <richardm> ok cool, so we all can agree that we don't delay the release for mnet, and hopefully we'll get more information on the moodle plans in the next month or two
20:11:23 <anitsirk> would anyone volunteer talking to Moodle HQ?
20:11:30 <mudrd8mz> richardm: +1
20:11:41 <anitsirk> +1
20:11:55 <dobedobedoh> richardm: +1
20:12:53 <anitsirk> #agreed mahara 1.5 is released as planned and a solution is investigated for the moodle hq drop of mnet for future versions
20:13:09 <dobedobedoh> Thanks mudrd8mz :)
20:13:17 <rkabalin1> +1
20:13:23 <richardm> cool, thanks mudrd8mz
20:13:28 <richardm> fmarier will be happy
20:13:32 <anitsirk> yeah. thanks, mudrd8mz
20:13:45 <anitsirk> not just fmarier i reckon :-)
20:13:58 <mudrd8mz> was pleasure, thanks guys. hopefully I'll get a chance to work in the integration if these two lovable products. bye!
20:14:11 <anitsirk> any volunteers for talking to moodle hq?
20:14:12 <hugh_home> cya, thanks for talking
20:14:12 <mudrd8mz> *on the ... *of these
20:15:19 <mudrd8mz> tip: Dan Poltawski is moving to AU and he will work in Moodle HQ. He has pretty much involvment in Mahara does he
20:15:31 <anitsirk> ok. i guess, i'll try to find a volunteer later.
20:15:54 <dobedobedoh> Ah good point...
20:16:04 <anitsirk> dobedobedoh and rkabalin1: do you know if dan will still be involved in mahara?
20:16:10 <dobedobedoh> He plans to be
20:16:14 <rkabalin1> yep
20:16:14 <anitsirk> :-)
20:16:21 <dobedobedoh> Since his evenings will probably be less filled with moodle
20:16:28 <mudrd8mz> :-)
20:16:51 <rkabalin1> or may be even more, you never know
20:17:05 <anitsirk> alright. is there anything else to discuss on this topic? i have the feeling we covered it well thanks to mudrd8mz insight.
20:17:21 <rkabalin1> yep, thanks mudrd8mz
20:17:41 <bugg_home> Sorry I'm late
20:17:55 <anzeljg> hi
20:18:00 <anitsirk> hi anzeljg and bugg_home
20:18:12 <anitsirk> ok. doesn't seem like there's anything else on the mnet topic.
20:18:32 <anitsirk> now, i don't see elky and haven't had a response from her yet, so i assume she can't make it today.
20:18:40 <anitsirk> then there are only two more items.
20:18:53 <anitsirk> #topic Next meeting and chair
20:18:53 <anitsirk> suggestion: March 20 at 7:30 a.m. UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20120320T0730
20:18:53 <anitsirk> Meeting in only 4 weeks time might be too short as we'll be busy working on getting the release for 1.5 under way.
20:19:15 <anitsirk> seeing as we are already pretty much at the beginning of february...
20:19:42 <rkabalin1> sounds good to me
20:20:22 <hugh_home> wfm
20:20:23 <dobedobedoh> sounds good to me
20:20:25 <richardm> #agreed sounds good to me too
20:20:29 <anitsirk> John_____, gerry_ and Beth_ : this time wouldn't be good at all for you guys, but finding a time for EU, US and NZ is difficult and we usually alter the "less favorable time" from meeting to meeting.
20:21:02 <Beth_> Thanks Kristina - that's fine.
20:21:09 <anitsirk> thanks.
20:21:25 <anitsirk> #agreed the 15th Mahara developer meeting will take place on March 20 at 7:30 a.m. UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20120320T0730
20:21:35 <anitsirk> so who wants to volunteer for chair duty? :-)
20:22:05 <anitsirk> if i remember correctly, elky and bugg_home wanted to when it was evening in nz ;-)
20:22:25 <bugg_home> yes...
20:22:40 <anitsirk> so. what say you?
20:22:42 <bugg_home> As you can see, I'm not at making these NZ morning meetings ;)
20:22:47 <bugg_home> not good*
20:22:57 <anitsirk> but the next one would be 8:30 p.m. for us
20:22:59 <bugg_home> also apparently lacking in function
20:23:36 <bugg_home> Sure, I'll do it
20:23:42 <anitsirk> great. thank you. sold.
20:24:13 <anitsirk> #info bugg_home will chair the next meeting. you can find more info about your duties at https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/Chair_Duties
20:24:14 <rkabalin1> anitsirk is selling chair duties?
20:24:19 <rkabalin1> :D
20:24:40 <anitsirk> ;-)
20:24:44 <anitsirk> ok. last item:
20:24:52 <anitsirk> #topic Any other business
20:24:59 <anzeljg> I've got two
20:25:06 <anitsirk> go ahead, anzeljg
20:25:15 <anzeljg> First things first...
20:25:49 <anzeljg> I wanted to merge skin support with latest mahara core, but was unable to do so, because had to fix europass plugin first.
20:26:06 <anzeljg> So I'm asking if there would be enough time to merge it anyway.
20:26:36 <anitsirk> #idea anzeljg would like to see skin support in mahara 1.5 and asks if there's still enough time.
20:26:40 <anzeljg> I'll be needing two-three weeks, since I have to finnish skin live preview and have to think the new way of selecting skins....
20:26:41 <anzeljg> ..
20:27:20 <anitsirk> anzeljg: we discussed the freeze today and the soft one is today (febr. 1) and the hard one in a week. did you finish the dev work so that it's ready to go into review?
20:27:32 <anitsirk> oops. sorry. didn't see your earlier line.
20:27:57 <anitsirk> 2-3 weeks would exclude reviews
20:28:00 <anzeljg> maybe, if i hurry, i could do it in a week - keep you posted
20:28:21 <richardm> anzeljg: There won't be time, we're wanting to stop putting new big features in from tomorrow.
20:28:43 <anzeljg> ok, so let's merge it after the release of 1.5 then?
20:28:54 <anitsirk> it can be a very cool big feature for 1.6 :-)
20:29:14 <anzeljg> so, you've said for the 1.3 and 1.4 if memory serves ;)
20:29:24 <dobedobedoh> I really think we shoudl start to get some of these features in to 1.6 and to do so first
20:29:29 <dobedobedoh> Same goes for isolated institutions
20:29:45 <anzeljg> agree
20:29:54 <dobedobedoh> We developed that for 1.2 and have updated it a couple of times with the hope of getting it in
20:30:01 <richardm> Yeah, I agree it's frustrating.
20:30:29 <richardm> The good thing now is at least we have a pretty robust process (gerrit) for getting new stuff in.
20:30:49 <richardm> Admittedly it's a fairly high barrier for non-git-users!
20:31:54 * bugg_home needs to find time to get back to reviewing mahara stuff
20:32:40 <anitsirk> anzeljg: as you will be finishing it soon, it can go into review for master early on in the release cycle and thus chances are increased that it becomes a core feature. it's not just the initial dev work but also the reviews and then implementing the suggestions / necessary changes that take time.
20:32:48 <richardm> I think the thing with these big features like skins & isolated institutions is that it's hard to find the time to break them down into easily reviewable patches
20:33:31 <richardm> pxh and i have been having the same struggle with webservices
20:33:33 <dobedobedoh> Yeah - and that can be where gerrit falls down slightly
20:36:09 <anitsirk> #idea: anzeljg finishes the skins support and submits it for review for mahara 1.6 early in the release cycle.
20:36:18 <anzeljg> fine
20:36:20 <anzeljg> The other think, which I think is even more important for average user than skins are repositories of external (cloud) services - files.
20:36:27 <anzeljg> I think we should support that in Mahara because:
20:36:33 <anzeljg> 1. Moodle uses it
20:36:37 <anitsirk> there was a discussion forum on that. let me find it
20:36:42 <anzeljg> 2. I was thinking of doing it - supoort for GoogleDocs, Dropbox and Windows Live SkyDrive
20:36:49 <anzeljg> 3. There is demand for it, see:
20:36:55 <anzeljg> #link http://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=4327
20:36:57 <dobedobedoh> We've also had local demand for it
20:37:02 <anzeljg> #link http://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=4331
20:37:08 <anzeljg> I think they should reside in "repository" folder to separate them from artefacts and blocktypes
20:37:15 <anzeljg> Any thoughts?
20:37:17 <anzeljg> ..
20:37:31 <dobedobedoh> I'd love to have it
20:37:50 <hugh_home> sounds great!
20:38:44 <anitsirk> pxh had already looked into skydrive support and the solution that was preferred involved a heck of a lot of work. so this would be a huge feature.
20:39:08 <bugg_home> sounds like a good idea. would you be wanting to implement in a similar fashion to moodle's repository system?
20:39:31 <anitsirk> which some people grumble about...
20:39:32 <anzeljg> don't know...
20:39:39 <anzeljg> currently it is just an idea.
20:39:55 <anitsirk> the important thing for repositories in mahara is that there would be no storage space needed on mahara. so files shouldn't be copied.
20:40:53 <bugg_home> heh, moodle's repo system is awfully restrictive
20:41:05 <anitsirk> anzeljg: do you want to think about it more after you finish skin support and draw up an initial spec?
20:41:12 <anzeljg> ok
20:41:22 <richardm> a spec would be great
20:41:32 <bugg_home> I'd originally wanted to write the kaltura plugins with a repository, but that was impossible.
20:41:39 <anitsirk> cool. :-) i'll not make it an action item for the next meeting though but put it onto the wiki,
20:41:42 <anitsirk> ..
20:42:21 <anzeljg> that's all from me.
20:42:32 <anitsirk> any other business?
20:42:58 <anitsirk> then just one quick one from me: there are going to be a few mahara conferences this year:
20:43:16 <dobedobedoh> yes - I'm organising MaharaUK
20:43:19 <anitsirk> mahara fr in june, mahara uk, mahoodlemoot at purchase in NY and probably a few more.
20:43:44 <bugg_home> none local to us in NZ? :(
20:43:54 <anitsirk> if you have the dates for these, please advertise early and let us know. you can also put them on the wiki including links to presentations.
20:44:23 <anitsirk> haven't planned anything so far.
20:44:42 <dobedobedoh> Mahara UK will be on the 3rd July in Lancaster, UK
20:44:50 <anitsirk> the next mahara newsletter will come out on april 1 and should also include any dates for these conferences.
20:44:53 <dobedobedoh> I'm hoping that we'll have a technical/developer half day on the 2nd July
20:45:07 <anitsirk> will you have a CFP, dobedobedoh?
20:45:18 <dobedobedoh> CFP?
20:45:37 <dobedobedoh> ah yes
20:45:40 <anitsirk> the MUG (Mahara User Group) also put in a proposal for the big AAEEBL ePortfolio conference in mid-July.
20:45:40 <dobedobedoh> That'll be going up soon
20:45:42 <anitsirk> Call for Papers
20:45:56 <anitsirk> great.
20:46:01 <anitsirk> that's it from me.
20:46:16 <anitsirk> anything else?
20:47:08 <anitsirk> alright. then i guess we are done for today. thanks a lot to all of you for attending.
20:47:11 <anitsirk> #endmeeting