19:31:40 <richardm> #startmeeting
19:31:40 <maharameet> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 19:31:40 2011 UTC.  The chair is richardm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:31:40 <maharameet> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:31:47 <richardm> #topic Meeting attendees
19:31:52 <richardm> Please put #info in front of your name
19:31:55 <richardm> #info richardm is Richard Mansfield, Catalyst, NZ
19:32:09 <dobedobedoh> #info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols - LUNS Ltd, UK
19:32:11 <hugh_home> #info hughdavenport is Hugh Davenport, Catalyst IT, NZ
19:32:12 <pxh> #info pxh is Piers Harding, Catalyst, NZ
19:32:15 <dan_p> #info dan_p is Dan Poltawski - LUNS Ltd, UK
19:32:17 <rkabalin_> #info rkabalin is Ruslan Kabalin, LUNS Ltd., UK
19:32:20 <dajan> #info dajan is Dominique-Alain from Switzerland
19:32:24 <anzeljg> #info anzeljg is Gregor An�elj, developer and translator
19:32:40 <anitsirk> #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner from Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
19:33:05 <richardm> cool, good crowd, hopefully others will show up soon
19:33:12 <richardm> #topic Items from previous meeting
19:33:22 <richardm> #info dan_p LUNS to investigate adding a new mahara integration project to run selenium tests
19:33:29 <richardm> dan_p: over to you!
19:34:10 <dan_p> I'm afraid I still haven't done it
19:34:47 <richardm> ok, should we move it to the current tasks wiki page?
19:35:05 <fmarier_> is it not there already?
19:35:17 <richardm> ah, maybe, I didn't check actually
19:35:25 <dan_p> I'm also leaving LUNS in January, so will need to see if rkabalin or dobe want to do it
19:35:42 <richardm> ah I see
19:35:43 <dan_p> Or agree to move it back to tasks ;)
19:35:56 <richardm> dan_p: are you leaving mahara as well as luns?
19:36:21 <fmarier_> i guess that makes sense (moving it back to tasks). anybody is free to pick it back up if they want
19:36:43 <dan_p> richardm: I hope not
19:36:54 <anitsirk> :-)
19:37:00 <rkabalin_> I may take that task over
19:37:01 <dan_p> I am going to moodle hq
19:37:10 <fmarier_> dan_p: cool!
19:37:12 <hugh_home> nice
19:37:15 <anitsirk> are you then also moving down under?
19:37:18 <fmarier_> are you moving to Perth?
19:37:21 <dan_p> So will hope to stay involved
19:37:21 <pxh> dan_p: congrats
19:37:27 <dan_p> Yes
19:37:32 <anitsirk> cool.
19:37:38 <fmarier_> wow, that'll be a big change
19:37:51 <dan_p> (also I'm typing on an iPad, sorry!)
19:37:52 <anzeljg> dan_p: congratulations
19:38:13 <richardm> awesome
19:38:40 <dajan> lucky guy, working in Aus. Perth is not as bad as that. You will see
19:38:52 <richardm> #action richardm to move the new mahara integration project back to tasks if it's not already there
19:39:02 <dan_p> Thanks everyone :)
19:39:05 <fmarier_> richardm: you can take it out, i've already done it :)
19:39:11 <richardm> #undo
19:39:11 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x987fe6c>
19:39:21 <richardm> cool
19:39:38 <richardm> alright, next item
19:39:39 <richardm> #info dobedobedoh to look at modifying release & test running scripts to look for tests in the right places
19:39:57 <anitsirk> make it a topic, richardm then it shows up as such
19:40:09 <richardm> ah ok
19:40:10 <anitsirk> sorry.
19:40:15 <dobedobedoh> Sadly I haven't had a chance to work on that yet. I was hoping to chat to elky or fmarier as to which scripts need updating
19:41:07 <fmarier_> do we have a bug on the tracker to keep track of that? (that seems to be the more logical place to keep this item)
19:41:16 <dobedobedoh> Not yet
19:41:18 <dobedobedoh> I'll create one
19:41:23 <richardm> ok
19:41:47 <richardm> #action dobedobedoh to create a bug for modifying release & test running scripts to look for tests in the right places
19:42:12 <richardm> #topic Starting the discussion about a possible date / month for the Mahara 1.5 release (Kristina)
19:42:25 <anitsirk> #idea I just wanted to start the discussion about the release date as we are getting close to the end of 2011 and more and more people ask about Mahara 1.5 and soon will ask about when it's going to be released. As most of our user base is in the northern hemisphere, I'd like to see a release date in late spring so that the edu sector can upgrade over the northern hemispheric summer as that seems to be the best and for many only time to upgra
19:42:30 <anitsirk> ..
19:43:18 <fmarier_> so our current objective i think is to have releases every 6 to 12 months
19:43:37 <fmarier_> which would mean 1.5 at the earliest in December and at the latest in June
19:44:05 <richardm> December isn't too realistic
19:44:08 <fmarier_> and based on previous releases, we should probably plan to freeze about 2 months before we want to release
19:44:17 <anitsirk> i think a release in june is more feasible because then we can still put some more features into it because most will not update before that i think.
19:44:30 <anzeljg> skin support?
19:44:35 <fmarier_> so yeah, richard is right, the earliest would be February (if we were to freeze now)
19:46:18 <fmarier_> personally, i don't really have a strong opinion
19:46:29 <anitsirk> i would think a freeze in april like this year would be quite good as this gives us a bit more time for planning and finishing up work
19:46:37 <richardm> i'm not sure we should always base releases on when school terms start
19:46:38 <fmarier_> but it looks like there are a few features that would be nice to have
19:46:50 <richardm> if we do that, we're always committing to 12 months
19:47:36 <anitsirk> do you want to release more frequently?
19:47:53 <pxh> I would like to get web services - if possible
19:48:01 <richardm> the last two have been more like 9 months, right?  and we already have enough in master for a good release now if we were so inclined
19:48:04 <pxh> in - that is
19:48:27 <fmarier_> anitsirk: we want to retain the flexibility to adjust the release date I think
19:49:11 <anitsirk> sure, but if we release now / soon then people will still only upgrade in july / august and miss the features we're putting into 1.6 between the release and then.
19:49:26 <dajan> As a technician and according with what I see as consultant, just delivering a new release before the end/beginning of term is not ideal. People need times to install the new release test it, see how much work they have to plan for the update and then the training of their users/teachers. Having a new release, let say a couple of months before the end of term seems more reasonable to me.
19:49:29 <dobedobedoh> If we're not moving to a time-based release strategy, what are our criteria for release?
19:50:11 <fmarier_> dobedobedoh: basically the way we've done it is that we decide to freeze when we have the features we want
19:50:16 <fmarier_> more or less
19:50:27 <dan_p> Do you have the features now?
19:50:37 <fmarier_> but of course, we can always decide to push some to the next release
19:50:40 <dobedobedoh> Where's the list of features?
19:50:42 <richardm> we also need a window when there's not too much other work on
19:51:10 <pxh> christmas/new year is good for that
19:51:57 <richardm> pxh: yes, usually. but last new year that didn't work out too well :)
19:52:34 <richardm> dobedobedoh: the list of features is in the git logs :)
19:52:53 <fmarier_> and on the 1.5.0 milestone on the tracker
19:53:38 <dan_p> As dajan has said, its a mixed bag releasing too close to the term start/end anyway
19:54:22 <fmarier_> I guess we don't have to decide today, but would it be fair to say that the freeze will happen sometime between Feb and Apr?
19:54:24 <dan_p> so if there is enough for a release i'd say release ;-)
19:54:38 <dan_p> freeze even
19:55:06 <dobedobedoh> ditto
19:55:07 <anitsirk> but in a way i don't think amking it too random is good because then people can't really plan
19:55:10 <richardm> dan_p: that's my opinion too, but i'm not really too worried
19:56:01 <fmarier_> anitsirk: that's an argument for time-based releases but nobody was really keen last time we discussed that as far as I recall
19:56:02 <richardm> anitsirk: well, they shouldn't rely too much on our plans anyway.  we've certainly disappointed in the past
19:56:33 <pxh> I would have thought it was more healthy for a project to release frequently - it gives it a sense of life
19:56:40 <anitsirk> then we can only do better :-)
19:56:44 <dan_p> pxh: agreed, that was my thought
19:56:45 <dobedobedoh> Fair few bugs targetted for 1.5 not yet committed: http://goo.gl/jTQJk
19:56:47 <richardm> pxh: i agree
19:57:52 <fmarier_> ok, so quick poll: what month do you think we should freeze? (Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr)
19:58:17 <dobedobedoh> Dec/Jan get my vote
19:58:20 <anitsirk> march / april
19:58:23 <rkabalin_> I vote for Apr
19:58:26 * richardm votes to decide later
19:58:28 <hugh_home> dec/jan
19:58:28 <anzeljg> i would like to see skin support in - so i'd say mar
19:58:31 <dajan> Feb/March
19:58:47 <pxh> I'd like to get web services in if possible - the restructuring for core has been done but it needs to go through the acceptance process
19:58:57 <dan_p> jan
19:58:58 <pxh> if that were possible then dec/jan
19:59:24 <dajan> Meaning that from Freeze to Release we must count about 2-3 months for beta testing and stabilization?
19:59:25 <dobedobedoh> I think Jan is good for those of us involved in Moodle - gives us 1 month after their release for things to calm down first
19:59:26 <fmarier_> pxh: i think you might want to vote for a later month then :)
19:59:55 <fmarier_> dajan: approximately. it depends on what bugs we find in the frozen release branch
20:00:11 <pxh> fmarier_: the longer I wait the longer I have to maintain two versions ...
20:00:26 <fmarier_> true
20:00:42 <dajan> In Europe is think it is important institutions can play with a final release on May the later
20:01:14 <alberto> hi
20:01:23 <anzeljg> hi
20:01:24 <alberto> any people?
20:01:25 <richardm> #info quick dodgy poll results for opinions on freeze date: dec/jan 4, feb/mar/april 3,
20:01:26 <hugh_home> hi alberto
20:01:26 <pxh> hi
20:01:28 <dajan> or wether the later they will skip a release to the next one. My opinion.
20:02:09 <anzeljg> feb/mar/apr 4 - my count
20:02:24 <richardm> #undo
20:02:24 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x98937ec>
20:02:27 <alberto> i am working in customizing mahara, and i like to show only friends in the invite group form, can anybody help me?
20:02:30 <richardm> #info quick dodgy poll results for opinions on freeze date: dec/jan 4, feb/mar/april 4
20:02:50 <fmarier_> and i've got: Dec: 3, Jan: 3, Feb: 1, Mar: 3, Apr: 2
20:03:19 <richardm> ok that's better
20:03:23 <richardm> #undo
20:03:23 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x989354c>
20:03:26 <dajan> No pool tools in IRC :-)
20:03:32 <anitsirk> too bad, dajan
20:03:45 <richardm> #info votes for freeze dates: Dec: 3, Jan: 3, Feb: 1, Mar: 3, Apr: 2
20:03:50 <alberto> i am late, but there is a log of this chat?
20:03:54 <anitsirk> i guess, we'll have to update the meeting host guide to include a link to an easy poll ;-)
20:03:59 <dobedobedoh> alberto: http://meetbot.mahara.org/mahara-dev/2011/mahara-dev.2011-11-08-19.31.log.txt
20:04:00 <anzeljg> alberto, you've dropped in the middle of the meeting. please stay to the end or ask that question in the forum...
20:04:02 <fmarier_> alberto: there will be at the end of the meeting
20:04:34 <richardm> ok, shall we move on?
20:04:43 <anitsirk> just a sec please
20:05:12 <anitsirk> so to summarize: if somebody asks in a presentation etc., i could say that 1.5 will be released in the first half of 2012, right?
20:05:36 <anitsirk> (without mentioning any concrete month)
20:05:41 <fmarier_> s/will be released/is targeted/
20:05:55 <richardm> anitsirk: i think that's highly likely, but yes, it's always good to promise nothing
20:05:59 <fmarier_> we don't promise a release date, we promise a freeze date (once we have one)
20:06:06 <anitsirk> sounds good, fmarier_ thanks
20:06:18 <richardm> #topic Handling security issues (Francois)
20:06:31 <fmarier_> right, that's going to be a quick one
20:06:52 <fmarier_> but it's basically just a reminder that the process for filing security bugs is slightly different from normal ones
20:07:09 <fmarier_> you can put them on the tracker if you click the "this bug is a security bug" checkbox
20:07:17 <fmarier_> and it will be hidden from the public
20:07:34 <fmarier_> but if you are working on fixing it, patches should go as attachments on that private bug instead of gerrit
20:07:46 <fmarier_> we review the patches manually on the tracker
20:07:59 <fmarier_> and they get pulled in by the release script when we release
20:08:05 <richardm> #info click the security checkbox when reporting a security issue on the tracker
20:08:15 <richardm> #info patches should go as attachments on that private bug instead of gerrit
20:08:30 <fmarier_> if you're unsure about what to do with it, don't discuss it on IRC, the forums, etc. just email security@mahara.org
20:08:41 <fmarier_> ..
20:08:55 <richardm> #info don't discuss it on IRC, the forums, etc. just email security@mahara.org
20:09:15 <fmarier_> that lack of initial transparency is there because sometimes it takes a while to fix an issue
20:09:35 <fmarier_> for example if we have to go through the entire codebase to make sure that the same problem doesn't exist elsewhere
20:09:39 <fmarier_> ..
20:10:05 <rkabalin_> and be careful with make push
20:10:32 <dobedobedoh> Is there any benefit to adding a hook to the Makefile to reject patches with security bugs in the subject without being from a member of the security team?
20:10:56 <fmarier_> dobedobedoh: if you can think of a good way to do this, sure
20:11:03 <dobedobedoh> I'll have a ponder
20:11:05 <fmarier_> but i guess it's hard to get that from the commit message
20:11:15 <fmarier_> unless there's a CVE number in there
20:11:26 <fmarier_> but we usually get CVE numbers pretty late in the process
20:11:27 <fmarier_> ..
20:11:40 <dobedobedoh> But most commits include a bug number at some point within them
20:12:28 <dobedobedoh> Anyhoo, I'll volunteer to have a go at playing with the Makefile
20:12:42 <richardm> ok, cool
20:13:08 <richardm> #action dobedobedoh to look at the possibility of adding a hook to the Makefile to reject patches with security bugs in the subject
20:13:27 <richardm> any more on this topic?
20:13:51 <fmarier_> not from me
20:13:57 <richardm> #topic Future possibilities for flexible page designs - layouts and themes (Mike Kelly)
20:14:04 <mikekelly_> Hi all
20:14:09 <anzeljg> hi mike
20:14:12 <richardm> hi mikekelly_
20:14:13 <dajan> hi
20:14:22 <hugh_home> hey
20:14:25 <mikekelly_> I hope this is the right forum to discuss this!
20:14:25 <anitsirk> hi mikekelly_
20:14:40 <richardm> sure
20:14:46 <mikekelly_> I'm from an art and design institution, and the users are keen to have more control over page design in Mahara. They want to have magazine-type page layouts, rather than just column-based. (e.g. 1 long row, another row split into 3 cols, then another long row.) I'm wondering how we might push this forward with the dev community. We have some money but not lots and lots. We would prefer to see a change like this happening in core
20:15:14 <waawaamilk> hello world
20:15:31 * waawaamilk has a thought on flexible page layouts
20:15:36 <anitsirk> hi waawaamilk
20:15:37 <mikekelly_> I'm also not sure what the status is of custom themes, so any info on that would be great.
20:15:54 <anzeljg> I also want to add some info
20:16:13 <waawaamilk> you guys should just go to absolute positioning for all objects
20:16:24 <waawaamilk> browser support is now pretty much assured
20:16:35 <waawaamilk> and it gives far more precise and creative possibilities
20:16:42 <waawaamilk> not to mention, the drag & drop is way easier
20:17:06 <hugh_home> how would that work with window resizing?
20:17:07 <waawaamilk> if people want columns, just provide a snap-to-grid effect
20:17:13 <mikekelly_> One factor to consider is LEAP2A
20:17:19 <richardm> #info waawaamilk reckons we should go for absolute positioning for all objects, it's the way of the future
20:17:30 <waawaamilk> hur
20:17:39 <dobedobedoh> I'd also like to see some options for pages with row separation
20:18:02 <mikekelly_> Did anyone see my forum thread on this?
20:19:05 <richardm> mikekelly_: yes, i noticed it, but didnt have any bright ideas at the time
20:19:08 <mikekelly_> I wondered about adding rows to the page, each with a specified column number...
20:19:11 <waawaamilk> window resizing: my initial thought is that you shouldn't be allowing too much width for resizing - you gain nothing by having the windows so flexible that people can destroy the layout by making it too wide _or_ too narrow
20:19:32 <mikekelly_> Seemed like an incremental approach rather than completely reinventing what is already there.
20:19:53 <dobedobedoh> Having a way of adding a row of columns seems the way forward
20:20:07 <rkabalin_> #link http://mahara.org/interaction/forum/topic.php?id=3925
20:20:22 <mikekelly_> Thanks rkabalin
20:21:12 <waawaamilk> fwiw, that sounds like it will result in more complication for the end user
20:22:06 <richardm> so does anyone feel like volunteering to hack this together & try it out? either absolute positioning or rows?
20:22:38 <hugh_home> it could be fun, but would need to find some time
20:23:04 <mikekelly_> I can contribute some time on this but I'm not so up to speed on your dev practices
20:24:13 <richardm> mikekelly_: i guess some kind of proof of concept on a test site would be a good start
20:24:17 <dajan> In a enduser perspective (pupil, students) I think the rows approach is more accessible and more easy to manage than totally free relative positioning bucks.
20:24:54 <mikekelly_> richardm - yes I'm sure I could put something together like that, time permitting
20:25:28 <richardm> ok, after that it's really a matter of learning git & pushing your patches through gerrit yourself, or convincing/bribing a core developer to do it
20:25:49 <mikekelly_> Yes, I'm using git already
20:25:49 <anzeljg> it is a hard task...
20:25:53 <fmarier_> we can certainly help with that last part
20:26:00 <anzeljg> bribing i mean ;)
20:26:08 <mikekelly_> : )
20:26:50 <mikekelly_> waawaamilk  I am not completely sold on the rows approach but it doesn't need to appear complex to the end user.
20:26:57 <dajan> I try to keep in mind what is a portfolio for. It is a reflexive tool to provide evidence of learning (formal and informal), for me it is not a web page builder tool. But I agree that we need a bit more flexibility in arranging the information on the pages.
20:26:59 <richardm> #info mikekelly_ will put together a test instance with rows in views, or absolute positioning of all blocks, if he gets time
20:27:14 <mikekelly_> At the simplest level they could just have more options on the layout page.
20:27:31 <anzeljg> It is a bit out of this toppic, but I just wanted to share tis
20:27:38 <waawaamilk> one good reason for going a different way is that you can throw out all that horrid view code I wrote with mochikit in 2007
20:27:42 <mikekelly_> dajan - agreed, but for a graphic designer form is content
20:27:46 <waawaamilk> or at least, you can solidly deprecate it
20:28:17 <_anzeljg_> I'm extending custom skins to include support for Google Web Fonts. This should give more design possibilities. A qucik screenshot of the work in progress: http://goo.gl/l1Bnl
20:28:18 <waawaamilk> and yeah, I agree with mikekelly_ over dajan - snap to grid can give you more rigid layouts if you want, while allowing art students to go to town like they would in a real portfolio
20:29:10 <richardm> #info anzeljg is extending custom skins with Google Web Fonts
20:29:24 <dan_p> If doing something more modern, I recommend looking at modernizr and polyfills..
20:29:34 <mikekelly_> Nice anzeljg - we have added web fonts to our Mahara too, not Google Fonts yet though
20:29:35 <waawaamilk> also, regarding the variable width thing - it occurs to me that it won't matter too much, people on wide screens might make a wideish portfolio which would appear with a scrollbar on narrower screens
20:29:39 <waawaamilk> no big deal
20:29:56 <waawaamilk> if you set a min and max width you can control the amount of "crazy" that this might otherwise result in
20:30:23 <dajan> mikekelly_: I agree. I also teach in a school of art in Lausanne. But I want Mahara remain simple to use to kids as for grown up arties
20:30:47 <waawaamilk> dajan: you could go the absolute way without throwing out the pre-set templates
20:31:06 <waawaamilk> if it were done in a clever enough way :)_
20:31:16 <mikekelly_> dajan: yes. I like simple surface but depth for those who want it.
20:32:18 <dajan> waawaamilk: in that case. Yes of course. We need more freedom, but having preset is important for basic users. Thanks to point that out. The two features can be combined. Don't know why I challenged one against the other so far. Sorry
20:32:26 <waawaamilk> anyways, I assume the one that will be done is the one that someone bothers to code, just thought I'd float that idea :)
20:32:34 * dobedobedoh thinks we need some mockups too
20:32:38 <mikekelly_> I would love to try an absolute position version if someone could put it together
20:32:45 <waawaamilk> dajan: all good, I don't want to hate on your opinion :)
20:33:09 <fmarier_> waawaamilk: indeed and i'm looking forward to seeing your version ;)
20:33:15 <waawaamilk> herp derp
20:33:23 <waawaamilk> I was just doing something similar for buzzumi
20:33:26 <waawaamilk> only one block though
20:33:50 <waawaamilk> it's so easy with jquery + plugins these days, you'd get rid of so much code
20:34:22 <richardm> #info everyone wants more flexible page layouts in mahara!
20:34:33 <richardm> ok, any more comments on this topic?
20:34:42 <dajan> I am ok
20:35:05 <waawaamilk> not from I
20:35:06 <mikekelly_> Would anyone be able to update me on custom skins
20:35:08 <mikekelly_> ?
20:35:45 <fmarier_> mikekelly_: anzeljg's patch hasn't been reviewed yet
20:36:05 <_anzeljg_> i've created option for users to create their own skins for views in 1.3
20:36:27 <mikekelly_> Do you think it will be integrated into 1.5
20:36:28 <fmarier_> we're still hoping to do it (and are looking for funding for it) but can't promise anything
20:36:32 <_anzeljg_> the skins are created with web forms
20:36:59 <_anzeljg_> mike, please contact me tomorrow about this...
20:37:10 <mikekelly_> OK, will do.
20:37:21 <_anzeljg_> gregor dot anzelj at gmail dot com
20:37:27 <richardm> #topic Request for development docs (Dajan)
20:37:28 <fmarier_> mikekelly_: that depends on two things: someone taking the time to go through it, and also when the freeze for 1.5 happens
20:37:47 <fmarier_> it would be nice if it were though
20:37:54 <fmarier_> lots of people are asking for it
20:37:54 <dajan> Is skins and the previous subject not linked ?
20:37:54 <mikekelly_> OK Gregor
20:38:06 <richardm> #undo
20:38:06 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x989086c>
20:38:15 <richardm> sorry about that
20:38:58 <richardm> any more under flexible page layouts and/or skins?
20:39:10 <_anzeljg_> not from me
20:39:12 <mikekelly_> Not here
20:39:15 <dajan> Not from me
20:39:23 <richardm> ok, lets go to the next one
20:39:26 <richardm> #topic Request for development docs (Dajan)
20:40:17 <dajan> Yes. My request was about the continuous development of the docs. This is important to me to be able to answer to conferences participant about what happens next.
20:40:44 <dajan> At the moment it is possible to have an idea of what is going on, by translating the strings (it's what I do)
20:40:47 <dajan> Reading the git
20:40:56 <dajan> Reading the tracker
20:41:29 <anitsirk> ideally, the user documentation is developed in parallel to when features are targeted for 1.5. unfortunately, i'm still on the documentation of 1.4 and lagging behind (i think i need a couple of weeks off to have it done)
20:41:33 <dajan> But the information is unstructured and difficult to assemble for Mahara advocate who want to speak about for coming features.
20:41:56 <dan_p> dajan: Are you talking about a roadmap?
20:42:29 <richardm> #info it would be useful to have up to date docs to talk to conference participants, but current info is unstructured & difficult to assemble
20:42:35 <fmarier_> dan_p: i think he's talking about new features that are done (as opposed to just planned)
20:42:38 <dajan> I look regularly at the roadmap, but it seems to me it is not up-to-date and not updated on the regular flow of development
20:42:45 <dobedobedoh> Our current roadmap ends at 1.4: https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Roadmap
20:43:03 <anitsirk> i think the page specifications in development https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Specifications_in_Development gives some idea about what will be in 1.5. it means though that it must be updated when something is implemented. however, i think mostly big features are on this list.
20:43:17 <dajan> fmarier: yes I do. I speak about the features they are to be tested in the dev version.
20:43:31 <fmarier_> the roadmap should be more of less ignored as it's out of date
20:43:37 <anitsirk> there is no real roadmap as it depends very much who is willing to sponsor new features for mahara. they get then put into the new release.
20:44:27 <fmarier_> so in a way what you'd like to see is the release notes for 1.5.0, assuming we were updating them as we're adding new features, right ?
20:44:43 <dajan> anitsirk: I am planning a training in Rennes in two weeks and will present also already done features of the 1.5dev. So I have a start if we want some docs about it.
20:45:20 <dajan> fmarier_: I am happy to help on this.
20:45:46 <anitsirk> sounds great, dajan.
20:46:19 <fmarier_> one thing that would be good to do as well is to perhaps link to that page from the newsletter, mentioning the new features that were added since the last newsletter
20:46:42 <anitsirk> that can be done easily, fmarier_
20:46:42 <fmarier_> (not trying to add more work on anitsirk's plate, just mentioning / linking to stuff that's written already)
20:46:42 <dajan> fmarier_: good idea
20:47:05 <anitsirk> hehe. thanks. no linking would be easy and i could also write a short text if i don't have enough articles
20:47:52 <richardm> so how are we going to compile the feature list from the tracker/git?
20:48:10 <anitsirk> #idea by fmarier_ : link to a list of upcoming features (constantly updated release notes) in the quarterly newsletter to keep community informed about these
20:48:19 * _anzeljg_ has to go... bye all.
20:48:24 <anitsirk> bye anzeljg
20:48:29 <dajan> bye my friend
20:48:31 <hugh_home> see you
20:48:32 <richardm> bye _anzeljg_
20:48:34 <fmarier_> bye _anzeljg_ thanks for coming
20:48:35 <pxh> bye
20:49:57 <anitsirk> dajan: shall we chat or skype about the documentation? i read your email.
20:50:30 <richardm> what if add some tag on the bug reports that are for new important features?
20:50:37 <dajan> happy to do that. But maybe not today, I have a lot of school work to finish before the end of the evening.
20:50:52 <anitsirk> dajan: that's fine. let's take it off-meeting to find a time
20:51:19 <hugh_home> we could start adding [FEATURE ....] or [BUG ....] to the commit line?
20:51:29 <fmarier_> anitsirk: thank you for not saying "let's take it offline" ;)
20:51:31 <hugh_home> as is done in other projects
20:51:52 <fmarier_> hugh_home: that's a bit noisy, a feature can consist of a ton of commits (and/or reverts of those)
20:51:58 <anitsirk> richardm: it's not just the important features. for the user documentation we would need all new features. sometimes finding them is not so easy esp. if there are only subtle changes. thus, having a list with all new features would be great. but that might be possible in launchpad, right?
20:52:07 <hugh_home> yeh, that makes sense
20:52:11 <fmarier_> i think something to do with the tracker is likely to be more relevant
20:52:16 <fmarier_> or easier to handle anyways
20:52:29 <hugh_home> I guess if the tracker has all the features set to wishlist
20:52:33 <richardm> anitsirk: i'm trying to think of a tag on bugs that would alert the person who's compiling the list
20:52:48 <fmarier_> the fact that we have all of the new features on the tracker now does make that task quite a bit easier i think
20:52:48 <hugh_home> then we can do some magic to get features from bug no in commit msg
20:52:54 <fmarier_> because you can ignore git
20:53:12 <hugh_home> ah yes, silly me, you don't need git to do it :P
20:53:17 <anitsirk> mhh. sure. tag sounds good. it's another possibility to find something easier and it's easy enough to add. :-)
20:54:01 <richardm> 'releasenotes', maybe?
20:54:19 <dajan> lets have a try with the tag. Happy with it
20:54:24 <anitsirk> but then you would at some point come up with the notes for 1.5 and 1.6
20:54:30 <hugh_home> sounds good
20:54:46 <anitsirk> i think it should be releasenotes15 or so to distinguish the releases
20:54:47 <fmarier_> anitsirk: the "fix released" bugs are hidden by default
20:55:07 <fmarier_> so you're not going to have releasnotes-tagged bugs for both 1.5 and 1.6 at the same time
20:55:12 <richardm> you can probably search for bugs by tag and milestone
20:55:34 <dajan> richardm: yes I think you can
20:55:35 <anitsirk> ok. that sounds good then
20:56:13 <dajan> I personally like the [FEATURE] or [NEW-FEATURE] tag
20:56:22 <richardm> #info we'll try tagging all bugs that should go in the release notes
20:56:59 <fmarier_> richardm: i'd say "new features" instead of "bugs"
20:57:07 <richardm> ah true
20:57:34 <richardm> ok, let's make it a feature tag
20:57:40 <dajan> but this is the bug-tracker, right. So richardm you are forgiven
20:58:51 <fmarier_> dajan: yeah the line between a bug and a feature is sometimes blurry :)
20:59:10 <hugh_home> :D
20:59:16 <hugh_home> true that
20:59:17 <dajan> fmarier_: correct one add many :-)
20:59:50 <dobedobedoh> We seem to have lost our chair!
21:00:09 <mikekelly_> I have to leave now - bye everyone and thanks for the feedback.
21:00:10 <dajan> Houston we have a problem. We lost the leader
21:00:24 <dobedobedoh> mikekelly: Thanks for joining us :)
21:00:32 <richardm> sorry about that
21:00:33 <pxh> bye
21:00:39 <fmarier_> bye mikekelly_
21:00:42 <richardm> bye mikekelly_
21:00:50 <dajan> bye mikekelly
21:01:14 <richardm> so where were we?
21:01:27 <dajan> Shall we go this way. I also have to leave you soon.
21:01:36 <richardm> did anyone volunteer to go through & add the feature tags for the 1.5 milestone?
21:02:09 <fmarier_> it sounds like dajan  already has a list for the new features so far, so i guess we only need to tag the new bugs for 1.5
21:02:17 <fmarier_> "new features", even :)
21:02:27 <dajan> Happy to give a hand, but I don't have the right to access the git at this level. Do I?
21:02:46 <richardm> dajan: it's just launchpad i think
21:02:54 <fmarier_> dajan: anybody can add tags to the tracker
21:03:31 <dajan> Cool. I will start to do that by the end next week. Ok with you?
21:03:39 <richardm> ok, great
21:03:52 <fmarier_> but i guess whoever marks the bug as fix committed can add the tag too
21:04:04 <richardm> #info dajan to start adding feature tags to bugs in the 1.5 milestone
21:04:18 <dajan> What is the tag we will use?
21:04:20 <anitsirk> and probably should so that it's done in one go and doesn't get forgotten
21:04:29 <richardm> #info everyone to start adding feature tags when setting bugs to fix committed (when it's a feature)
21:04:59 <dajan> We have to _define_ this tag before all
21:05:09 <richardm> dajan: you can choose, seeing as you're doing the work!
21:05:45 <dajan> Fine. Willco
21:06:07 <dajan> Report about this in the next meeting
21:06:15 <richardm> ok
21:06:44 <richardm> #action dajan to report on tagging existing 1.5 features on the tracker
21:06:53 <richardm> #topic Next meeting and chair
21:07:05 <richardm> #idea Wednesday 7th December @ 07:30 UTC (07:30 GMT/20:30 NZDT)
21:07:06 <richardm> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20111207T0730
21:07:14 <hugh_home> i could be keen to chair
21:07:37 <richardm> #info hugh_home to chair the next meeting
21:07:39 <anitsirk> richardm: that doesn't work. we'll have zoodoo
21:07:39 <richardm> thanks hugh_home
21:07:45 <dobedobedoh> Wednesdays aren't so good for us any more :( meeting clash
21:07:48 <richardm> anitsirk: good point
21:07:50 <fmarier_> richardm: bad date (zoodoo)
21:07:51 <hugh_home> yeh i was just checking when zoodoo was
21:07:55 <richardm> how about Tuesday?
21:08:02 <dobedobedoh> Tuesdays wfm
21:08:11 <anitsirk> for those non-catalyst people: zoodoo is our annual christmas party held in the wellington zoo :-)
21:08:25 * dobedobedoh was wondering!
21:08:25 <richardm> #idea Tuesday 6th December @ 07:30 UTC (07:30 GMT/20:30 NZDT)
21:08:44 <anitsirk> +1
21:08:55 <dobedobedoh> +1
21:09:06 <rkabalin_> +1
21:09:07 <dajan> -1
21:09:23 <hugh_home> wfm
21:09:31 <dan_p> +1
21:09:34 <dajan> Ok will try +1 but not sure yet
21:09:47 <rkabalin_> anitsirk: good to know, the first link I found was http://www.zoodoo.co.nz :))
21:09:58 <fmarier_> #link http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20111206T0730
21:10:02 <hugh_home> ha, i remember that stuff :P
21:10:22 <anitsirk> lol
21:10:24 <richardm> yeah i don't know why they changed the spelling from zoodo to zoodoo
21:10:25 <elky> Oh drat, sorry I'm late, I forgot all about it
21:10:35 <dajan> I have to go now. Thanks to all of you. anitsirk: will contact you by email to schedule a Skype call. Cheers all. Happy Mahara since then.
21:10:37 <fmarier_> rkabalin_: nice :)
21:10:51 <anitsirk> sounds good, dajan. have a nice evening
21:11:06 <hugh_home> see you
21:11:08 <dajan> Marking! Not a NICE evening.
21:11:13 <hugh_home> hehe
21:11:16 <richardm> #info next meeting will be Tuesday 6th December @ 07:30 UTC, chaired by hugh_home
21:11:17 <dobedobedoh> General info: This is our 12th meeting
21:11:18 <hugh_home> fun stuff
21:11:30 <dobedobedoh> We've been doing these for a year now!
21:11:44 <hugh_home> :D
21:11:48 <fmarier_> hugh_home: https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/Chair_Duties (you've probably seen it already)
21:12:01 <richardm> #topic Any other business
21:12:02 <hugh_home> yup, will have another read though :P
21:12:27 <anitsirk> richardm: no other business from my end
21:12:30 <richardm> alberto: you had an item to add?
21:13:46 <richardm> there were also a couple of left over items from zzmonty from the last meeting about the wiki
21:14:18 <fmarier_> richardm: she's not here though
21:14:23 <richardm> yeah i think we can drop those now
21:14:52 <anitsirk> put it on the todo list though
21:15:14 <richardm> anitsirk: which todo list? the next agenda or current tasks?
21:15:22 <anitsirk> current tasks
21:15:43 <fmarier_> well that list is for clearly-defined things
21:15:49 <fmarier_> her items haven't been discussed yet
21:15:50 <richardm> i don't think we actually wanted to do at least one of those things
21:16:25 <anitsirk> then i guess it will be up to her to take it up in amother meeting
21:17:08 <rkabalin_> I have to leave, thanks everyone, thanks richardm for chairing
21:17:13 <richardm> yeah, if she can make it to a future meeting, they can be added to the agenda at that point
21:17:21 <richardm> thanks rkabalin_
21:17:26 <fmarier_> see you rkabalin_
21:17:27 <anitsirk> bye rkabalin_
21:17:29 <pxh> rkabalin_: bye
21:17:31 <richardm> ok i think we're done
21:17:39 <richardm> any other comments?
21:17:45 <anitsirk> nope
21:17:57 <hugh_home> nope, thanks for chairing !
21:18:05 <fmarier_> thanks richardm
21:18:09 <dobedobedoh> Thanks for chairing richardm :)
21:18:13 <richardm> #endmeeting