08:01:09 <aarow_laptop> #startmeeting
08:01:09 <maharameet> Meeting started Thu Dec  5 08:01:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is aarow_laptop. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:01:09 <maharameet> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:02:21 <aarow_laptop> I'd like to start the meeting as we always do by asking everyone to introduce themselves, preceeding it with #info so it'll show up in the minutes
08:02:26 <anitsirk> #info anitsirk is Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:02:33 <dobedobedoh> #info dobedobedoh is Andrew Nicols, Moodle Pty Ltd, Perth, Australia.
08:02:35 <sonn_> #info sonn_ is Son Nguyen, Catalyst IT, Welllington, NZ
08:02:40 <anzeljg> #info anzeljg is Gregor Anželj, developer and translator, Ljubljana, Slovenia
08:02:50 <aarow_laptop> #info aarow_laptop is Aaron Wells, Catalyst IT in Wellington
08:02:53 <mingard> #info mingard is Jono Mingard, newly of Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:03:23 <robertl_> #info robertl_ is Robert Lyon, developer, Catalyst IT, Wellington, NZ
08:03:29 <aarow_laptop> Hi ghada, we were just doing introductions. Please introduce yourself, preceeding it with #info so you'll show up in the auto-generated minutes
08:03:53 <tobiasz> #info #me is Tobias Zeuch, developer at the KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany
08:04:01 <tobiasz> #info /me is Tobias Zeuch, developer at the KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany
08:04:15 <ghada> #info ghada is Ghada El-Zoghbi, developer, Catalyst IT, Sydney, Aus
08:04:18 <tobiasz> #info tobiasz is Tobias Zeuch, developer at the KIT, Karlsruhe, Germany
08:04:29 <anitsirk> tobiasz: what is the KIT? Karlsruhe Institute of Technology?
08:04:47 <tobiasz> yep
08:04:49 <aarow_laptop> whoops, I got disconnected for a few seconds there
08:04:50 <dobedobedoh> For those interested, the live minutes are at http://meetbot.mahara.org/mahara-dev/2013/mahara-dev.2013-12-05-08.01.log.txt (if you want to find out who people are and missed it)
08:05:09 <aarow_laptop> just what I needed :)
08:05:55 <aarow_laptop> Well, is that everyone who's actually present and not just leaving their IRC signed in 24/7? ;)
08:06:09 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: i think so
08:06:18 <aarow_laptop> okay, then
08:06:28 <aarow_laptop> #topic Items from last meeting: The "Choose a skin" contest
08:07:07 <aarow_laptop> anitsirk, I think you ran the contest, do you have want to say anything about it?
08:07:31 <anitsirk> ehm. nope. not much. don't know why you put it on the agenda. ;-) just a few words then I guess:
08:07:59 <aarow_laptop> I think at the last meeting (two months ago) it was still a proposal, and it got bumped to "discuss at next meeting"
08:08:28 <anitsirk> It was the first time that we ran a competition that robertl_ and aarow_laptop had come up with. it was great because we got some people to submit skins using anzeljg's new feature.
08:08:37 <robertl_> the contest did help find a bug or two in skins so that was useful
08:08:51 <anitsirk> it was great to see what users had come up with and also see the power of the skins and that you can create some pretty cool stuff.
08:09:21 <robertl_> and was good to see how mahara folks would use it
08:09:25 <aarow_laptop> and it showed us that we didn't have a very convenient central place for people to share skins
08:09:38 <anitsirk> the hidden goal was to get users to test the feature, but it was also good to garner interest in this feature.
08:09:50 <anzeljg> the main "complaint" when creating skins was to add support for choosing menu colors
08:10:08 <aarow_laptop> anzeljg: which menus?
08:10:18 <anzeljg> which are shown on page
08:10:22 <robertl_> the topnav you mean?
08:10:25 <anzeljg> yep
08:10:29 <aarow_laptop> oh, right
08:11:05 <aarow_laptop> #info The contest was a success at locating bugs during the RC stage, and raising interest in skins
08:11:30 <aarow_laptop> #info One reported oversight is the inability to set the color of the topnav
08:12:05 <aarow_laptop> Oh yeah, we wound up turning on the ability to attach XML files to wiki.mahara.org, and I think that's where we're telling people to post skins they want to share
08:12:18 <anitsirk> wasn't it zip files?
08:12:37 <aarow_laptop> maybe it was zip files
08:12:42 <aarow_laptop> https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Page_skins
08:12:57 <aarow_laptop> many people have also just hosted them as files in their mahara.org accounts
08:13:00 <anitsirk> afaik we turned on zip files and pdfs
08:13:09 <aarow_laptop> #info we've set up a skins sharing page on the wiki: https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Page_skins
08:13:33 <aarow_laptop> okay, if there's nothing else about skins, we'll move on to the next topic
08:14:06 <anitsirk> oops. and there we lost him again.
08:14:15 <aarow_laptop> whoops, disconnected again
08:14:21 <aarow_laptop> I seem to be having some technical issues tonight
08:14:52 <aarow_laptop> #topic Dropping support for MySQL 5.1, as of Mahara 1.9
08:15:44 <aarow_laptop> I want to drop support for MySQL 5.1 in the next release, since 5.5 has been out for 4 years now, and our devs aren't actively testing on 5.1 anymore anyway
08:15:52 <robertl_> with the increased reliance on triggers / procedures mysql 5.1 isn't going to cut it
08:16:11 <aarow_laptop> does it have different trigger & procedure syntax?
08:16:15 <ghada> Also, support for 5.1 (Oracle) has stopped.
08:16:37 <ghada> It has different permisisons.
08:16:53 <mingard> so hopefully potential clients will no longer be running 5.1?
08:16:58 <dobedobedoh> What's the version bundled in major distros?
08:17:01 <ghada> It's been "streamlined" and a new permission has been added just for triggers.
08:17:18 <ghada> not sure...
08:17:20 <aarow_laptop> debian & Ubuntu come with 5.5 I believe
08:17:30 <mingard> ubuntu 12.04+ come with 5.5
08:17:33 <dobedobedoh> Wheezy = 5.5
08:17:44 <dobedobedoh> We can't drop support if major distros are still using 5.1 IMHO
08:17:46 <ghada> that sounds right. Three months ago I installed Ubuntu and it's 5.5
08:17:49 <dobedobedoh> So DeadRat?
08:17:59 <dobedobedoh> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/mysql-server
08:18:31 <dobedobedoh> CentOS seems to still bundle 5.1
08:18:55 <anitsirk> but we don't officially support centos
08:18:57 <dobedobedoh> http://mirror.centos.org/centos/6/os/x86_64/Packages/
08:19:04 <dobedobedoh> We don't officially support any OS do we?
08:19:29 <anitsirk> the mahara registration information isn't helpful at all. for postgres it says "postgres7" though i'm running 9.1 if i'm not mistaken.
08:19:58 <robertl_> https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/System_Administrator%27s_Guide/Requirements
08:20:03 <aarow_laptop> whoops, disconnected again
08:20:16 <robertl_> says we officially support debian and ubuntu
08:20:21 <dobedobedoh> Hm, when did that come in?!?
08:20:23 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: are you using the web client?
08:20:32 <aarow_laptop> no, I'm using xchat. maybe I should switch, though
08:20:43 <anitsirk> robertl_: but we don't do debian packages at the moment.
08:21:05 <aarow_laptop> well, our support in that sense means that we will actively work to make it run on Debian
08:21:14 <aarow_laptop> albeit now, by manually installing it
08:21:18 <anzeljg> whishlist: centos would be nice...
08:21:20 <robertl_> right
08:21:45 <sonn_> I go for CentOS
08:21:54 <dobedobedoh> Personally, I'm a Debian user, but I think we should consider the CentOS users too.
08:22:17 <aarow_laptop> hm, it's an interesting point
08:22:18 <anitsirk> can we leave that discussion to another topic / time and focus on mysql, please? ;-)
08:22:33 <dobedobedoh> anitsirk: They're intrinsically linked.
08:22:36 <mingard> according to the wiki we support ubuntu 10.04, which doesn't have mysql 5.5 afaik - that would need to be updated if we switch
08:22:44 <dobedobedoh> Ditto for Lenny
08:23:06 <aarow_laptop> okay, let's do this
08:23:17 <aarow_laptop> take a look at the major distros & their versions
08:23:23 <aarow_laptop> and see what MySQL versions they support
08:23:29 <tobiasz> is there any (statistical) data about the systems people are installing mahara on?
08:23:50 <dobedobedoh> Might be wise to sk Partners too aarow_laptop
08:23:52 <aarow_laptop> Let me check the "phone home" data
08:24:21 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: it's not useful for postgres as it only says postgres7. doubt it's acurate for mysql.
08:25:41 <aarow_laptop_> another way to look at it, though, is that the "supported systems" is also a reflection of which systems are we actually testing it on
08:26:19 <aarow_laptop_> and in point of fact, at Catalyst NZ these days we're just testing it on Ubuntu with Postgres 9 & MySQL 5.5
08:26:42 <ghada> Same in Catalyst, Australia
08:26:50 <robertl_> the devs certainly are
08:27:05 <aarow_laptop_> I think if we got some automated testing set up, then it would be more feasible to run those automated tests on other distro's
08:27:08 <robertl_> the testers branch out a bit more with OS / devices
08:27:22 <dobedobedoh> We'd need to write some phpunit tests...
08:28:03 <aarow_laptop_> okay, so I think we can summarize this topic
08:28:27 <aarow_laptop_> We should get a look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1
08:28:46 <aarow_laptop_> and... well, I guess that's the main action item
08:29:01 <anitsirk> #action We should get a look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1
08:29:06 <aarow_laptop_> thanks anitsirk
08:29:17 <anitsirk> now we just need someone to attach to the action item :-)
08:29:24 <dobedobedoh> aarow_laptop_: you'll need to rename to attach items ;)
08:29:31 <aarow_laptop_> oh
08:31:11 <aarow_laptop> #action also, note that if we can specify 5.1.6 at least, we'll make things easier for ourselves
08:31:28 <aarow_laptop> Okay, next topic
08:31:36 <aarow_laptop> #topic Plans & priorities for Mahara 1.9
08:31:38 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: wait
08:31:50 <anitsirk> who is going to find out?
08:31:55 <aarow_laptop> oh :)
08:32:13 <sonn_> I will do
08:32:18 <aarow_laptop> thanks sonn_
08:32:47 <anitsirk> #action sonn_ will look at which OS's & versions we'll be cutting off if we drop support for 5.1.
08:33:10 <aarow_laptop> so, moving on the
08:33:18 <aarow_laptop> #topic Plans & priorities for Mahara 1.9
08:33:47 <aarow_laptop> #info It's not looking to be as big and exciting of a release as 1.8
08:33:53 <anitsirk> there must be something in the nz air. i got dropped off the channel as well. :-(
08:34:36 <aarow_laptop> #info We've got mingard working on accessibility
08:35:29 <aarow_laptop> #info And I'd really like to upstream the improvements to sent messages and notifications being developed by tobiasz
08:35:30 <mingard> seems to me that we can get A level accessibility quite easily, possibly AA as well before release
08:35:41 <mingard> but I need to do more research into exactly what will be involved
08:35:45 <aarow_laptop> good to hear
08:35:54 <dobedobedoh> The text editor will get in your way there
08:36:27 <mingard> tinyMCE?
08:36:29 <dobedobedoh> TinyMCE is non-compliant
08:36:37 <dobedobedoh> We're going through that atm
08:36:45 <aarow_laptop> at Moodle?
08:36:48 <dobedobedoh> Yup
08:37:07 <dobedobedoh> We're looking at replacing TinyMCE 3.5; 4.X is better, but still not great
08:37:18 <mingard> might work just having an option to turn it off
08:37:27 <mingard> but I'm not sure where that should go
08:37:34 <anitsirk> mingard and our accessibility expert are working on reviewing mahara for accessibility issues so that we can get a good overview of where work would be necessary. we'll then have a good picture of the pain areas and those that could be fixed more easily. we may not be able to address all issues at once, but at least we'll know where work would be needed. ideally, we'll also get some funding for improving the accessibility. if anyone knows of
08:37:48 <anitsirk> possibility to tap into, please let us know.
08:38:37 <aarow_laptop> mingard: Well, we could add a "screenreader compatibility" setting to the account settings
08:38:47 <anitsirk> mingard: you can already do that at the moment under user settings :-)
08:38:55 <aarow_laptop> oh, that too
08:39:01 <aarow_laptop> you can actually turn off the wysiwyg editor
08:39:10 <mingard> ok, I'll look into it
08:39:21 <mingard> maybe just some more explanation that screen reader users should do this
08:39:34 <anitsirk> i thought that's what moodle was doing as well.
08:39:48 <mingard> also note so far we've only really looked at viewing things (not editing) so edit functionality may need a lot more work
08:40:00 <aarow_laptop> perhaps if we wind up with a list of things like that, we could put together a page in the Mahara manual or something, about how to optimize your Mahara experience for accessibility
08:40:19 <aarow_laptop> yes :)
08:40:28 <mingard> good idea, I'll bear it in mind
08:40:32 <dobedobedoh> We're trying to make everything ARIA compliant, everywhere with a view to dropping the screenreader setting
08:40:53 <dobedobedoh> So that there's only one interface, and it's an accessible one.
08:41:04 <anitsirk> we were definitely planning on creating bugs for the issues and also having some information on the wiki in regards to overall accessibility because we've been asked this question in the past / recently.
08:41:30 <anitsirk> dobedobedoh: that's a great approach.
08:42:13 <mingard> agreed, ideally we'll also use it
08:42:42 <aarow_laptop> well, shall we move on to the next bit?
08:43:26 <aarow_laptop> so, there was accessibility
08:43:35 <ghada> any action required?
08:43:55 <aarow_laptop> Well, mingard's already working on accessibility
08:44:07 <aarow_laptop> so no further action I think :)
08:44:31 <mingard> ok, shall I update at the next meeting
08:44:33 <mingard> ?
08:44:54 <aarow_laptop> The next thing in our 1.9 plans, was to get in the improvements to the "sent messages" and inbox
08:45:13 <aarow_laptop> which I believe both tobiasz and another developer on the forum are both working on different versions of
08:45:18 <ghada> auto testing?
08:45:27 <anitsirk> mingard: good idea.
08:46:02 <aarow_laptop> tobiasz, I've been meaning to look at your patch, I'll try to get to that asap
08:47:36 <aarow_laptop> I also put "automated testing" on the agenda, but that's more of a wishlist item than a likelihood. However, the folks at Totara seem to finally be starting on their Mahara-related project, and they're pretty big on automated testing, so I'm hoping we can get them to do some work towards writing some tests for Mahara
08:48:18 <robertl_> or at least settle on a good test framework that we can use
08:48:21 <tobiasz> aarow_laptop: ok, I'll wait for your comments. It's programmed as a pure plugin so far but we can integrate it into the core. Just wanted to see what you (all) think about the implementation, first
08:48:42 <aarow_laptop> #info Automated test, would be great, but outlook uncertain at the moment
08:48:56 <aarow_laptop> Okay, next item
08:49:04 <aarow_laptop> #topic: Features funded by Arnes which could go into 1.9
08:49:09 <dobedobedoh> We already have a test framewrok
08:49:11 <aarow_laptop> anzeljg?
08:49:14 <anitsirk> tobiasz: we were thinking of going over the discussion you had with angela again and see if maybe a combo of your work would be a good idea as she also had good points.
08:49:15 <dobedobedoh> But no-one has ever written any tests for it
08:49:41 <anzeljg> It seems that two parallel conversations are going on.
08:49:48 <aarow_laptop> dobedobedoh: yep, the framework isn't so much the problem, it's the tests
08:49:49 <anzeljg> Shall I wait for couple of minutes?
08:49:55 <anitsirk> yeah. we aren't quite finished with the previous topic. ;-)
08:49:59 <aarow_laptop> oh, sorry
08:50:04 <aarow_laptop> I think I may have had some lag there
08:50:04 <dobedobedoh> Please undo ;)
08:50:08 <aarow_laptop> #undo
08:50:08 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x2b8cbd0>
08:50:45 <dobedobedoh> As I say, we already have phpunit implemented. It's Mjollnir`'s code which I sponsored and had integrated
08:50:58 <dobedobedoh> Unfortunately I then changed employ and haven't done as much mahara dev since and no-one else has written any tests either
08:51:08 <dobedobedoh> but the basis is there
08:51:30 <mingard> does totara also use phpunit?
08:51:35 <dobedobedoh> Moodle does
08:51:41 <dobedobedoh> And since Totara == Moodle
08:52:56 <aarow_laptop> I'm actually more interested in setting it up to some behat testing, front-end stuff
08:53:05 <aarow_laptop> which Moodle also does these days
08:53:11 <dobedobedoh> Indeed so
08:54:01 <anitsirk> that's where we got the idea from ;-)
08:54:03 <aarow_laptop> we've even had some training with the Catalyst QA team to prepare them to write gherkin tests (for Moodle)
08:56:14 <anitsirk> #info extending mahara with tests (unit tests but also behat) is high on the wishlist as it would facilitate regression testing, compatibility of new code etc.
08:57:35 <aarow_laptop> okay, next topic?
08:57:36 <tobiasz> and compatibility of 3rd party plugins. I'd highly appreciate the tests
08:59:20 <aarow_laptop> #topic Features funded by Arnes which could go into 1.9
09:00:05 <aarow_laptop> anzeljg?
09:00:06 <anzeljg> The first three will be funded by Arnes, about hte last the conversation is still going on...
09:00:14 <anzeljg> 1. Dinamical "Progress bar" based on Institution selected preferences
09:00:15 <aarow_laptop> oh, sorry
09:00:26 <anzeljg> The idea is to take my "Progress bar" plugin, which has static set of artefacts that it observes and based on those artefacts it alculates the Profile completeness. The plugin could be extended in a way to implement page/dashboard for institution admins which would list all available artefacts and the admins would select which artefacts should count towards Profile completeness for their institution. Would it also be a good idea to
09:00:45 <anzeljg> of those artefacts? To explain a little bit: select/drop-down box with options from 0 to e.g. 5 where that number would mean the occurance of each artefact type (0 = artefact does not count toward Profile completeness, 5 = 5 artefacts of that type count toward Profile completeness but user could also add less than 5 artefacts)
09:00:53 <anzeljg> ..
09:01:19 <anzeljg> Sorry, I meant do anyone has comments before I move on to number2 ?
09:01:37 <aarow_laptop> I like the idea of a profile progress bar :)
09:02:24 <anitsirk> anzeljg: do you have a screenshot or reference site? i remember having it seen somewhere.
09:02:40 <anzeljg> I'll try to find it...
09:02:48 <robertl_> me too - it gives new users a task to complete
09:02:52 <anitsirk> i also like the idea of an admin (institution admin?) being able to select which items count towards completeness.
09:03:01 <mingard> so do I. Not sure how sophisticated the config needs to be (would be quite nice to have a number input ...)
09:03:33 <anitsirk> #idea The idea is to take anzeljg's "Progress bar" plugin, which has static set of artefacts that it observes and based on those artefacts it alculates the Profile completeness. The plugin could be extended in a way to implement page/dashboard for institution admins which would list all available artefacts and the admins would select which artefacts should count towards Profile completeness for their institution.
09:04:40 <anzeljg> anitsirk: the article was published in las newsletter, but the link https://mahara.org/newsletter  doesn't work
09:05:02 <anitsirk> anzeljg: it does work for me.
09:05:23 <anzeljg> strange... anyway there should be a screenshot
09:05:25 <anitsirk> sorry that i forgot that it was in the newsletter
09:05:34 <anitsirk> and yes, there is a screenshot.
09:05:43 <anzeljg> :)
09:06:00 <aarow_laptop> yep, I see, looks good from the screenshot at least
09:06:35 <robertl_> so when task are completed do they disappear from list?
09:06:44 <anzeljg> when it's completed maybe we could discuss implementing it into core, if you wish?
09:06:49 <anzeljg> robertl_: yes
09:06:56 <robertl_> cool
09:07:12 <anitsirk> would that require that the dashboard is made more flexible, i.e. the admin can decide which blocks to place on the dashboard?
09:07:46 <aarow_laptop> Indeed, it seems like this is a feature that would make the most sense if an admin could have it automatically show up in the default dashboard
09:07:53 <anzeljg> i'm not sure. currently i've made it so that for existing and new users the block is added to position 0 at right column...
09:08:02 <anitsirk> #info the proof-of-concept around the progress bar plugin and a screenshot can be seen in the Mahara Newsletter, October 2013 https://mahara.org/view/artefact.php?artefact=292431&view=36871
09:08:28 <anitsirk> but it would only make sense to have if the admin configured some sort of completion.
09:08:31 <anzeljg> aarow: yes it shows at default dashboard, for current and new users
09:08:48 <anzeljg> anitsirk: wha do you mean?
09:09:07 <ghada> and the user can remove it from their dashboard if they wish?
09:09:24 <anzeljg> ghada: haven't tested that - i think so
09:09:25 <anitsirk> if an admin doesn't want to have a progress bar show up on the dashboard, it should not be placed there by default for existing and new users.
09:09:35 <anitsirk> removing it should also be possible like for every other block.
09:09:36 <anzeljg> anitsirk: i see
09:10:17 <aarow_laptop> I see, the block has a postinst() method which adds it to all the existing dashboards, and to the default dashboard template
09:10:33 <mingard> is it listed in the blocks menu? how does the user get it back if they remove it by accident?
09:10:41 <anzeljg> anitsirk: so there should be a setting in plugin settings to allow admin to swithc plugin on/off?
09:10:54 <anzeljg> i thought that turning the plugin off is enough
09:11:02 <aarow_laptop> Yeah, that would do it
09:11:27 <aarow_laptop> mingard: Yes, the block is set so that a user could re-add it to their Dashboard page if they remove it
09:11:40 <mingard> ok, just checking
09:11:58 <ghada> so, not like the homeinfo?
09:12:04 <anitsirk> then i think there should be some sort of help before turning it on though esp. when it places a new block on a person's dashboard. normally, we do not touch existing pages and add things or change things as users can customize them to their liking.
09:12:16 <aarow_laptop> true
09:12:20 <anitsirk> ghada: homeinfo is different from blocks.
09:12:33 <aarow_laptop> well, we'll need to give some thought to the automated placement thing when upstreaming it
09:12:40 <anzeljg> agree
09:12:41 <anitsirk> homeinfo is a template that the admin controls whereas the rest of the dashboard blocks is user controlled though we have default blocks there.
09:12:47 <ghada> yes, but the mechanism to switch it off is in the user settings also.
09:12:54 <aarow_laptop> I think the most logical thing (and kind of a missing bit of Mahara functionality anyway) would be to let admins configure the default Dashboard page
09:13:15 <anitsirk> +1. but that would need to be done on institution level
09:13:15 <aarow_laptop> currently you can do that with a hack, by logging in as the root user
09:13:38 <anzeljg> that is the hack, i've used :)
09:14:10 <aarow_laptop> ghada: Yeah, homeinfo is not actually a block. Although it could make sense to display the profile progress in a similar, non-Block fashion
09:14:10 <aarow_laptop> on the other hand, we've already got it fully implemented as a Block :)
09:14:44 <tobiasz> but configuring the dashboard page doesn't help when you introduce the plugin into a running system/with existing user accounts
09:15:16 <aarow_laptop> correct, changes to the default dashboard would only affect new users
09:16:02 <mingard> there's no way to have some sort of installation wizard for the plugin with an option to update existing users' dashboards?
09:16:34 <aarow_laptop> #idea Add an interface for site & instititution admins to customize the default dashboard page
09:16:39 <anzeljg> that's why the plugin currently updates the default dashboard (for new future users) and also dashboards of every exisitng user
09:16:42 <ghada> that would be some might sql wranglings...
09:16:43 <aarow_laptop> #idea Put the profile progress into a non-Block similar to homeinfo
09:17:00 <anitsirk> mingard: normally, we don't touch users' existing pages as they could have highly customized them.
09:17:31 <aarow_laptop> actually it wouldn't be too hard for admins to customize the default dashboard page
09:18:00 <mingard> I see. having it set up like homeinfo makes sense to me, it's not the sort of thing you would want to add to multiple pages for example
09:18:01 <aarow_laptop> it's stored as a normal page in the DB
09:18:01 <aarow_laptop> it just belongs to the usually inacessible "root" user 0
09:18:02 <aarow_laptop> if you give the "root" user a password, you can log in as them and edit it already
09:19:04 <aarow_laptop> okay, well, not to shut down the discussion, but we are running a bit late, so I suggest we move on to the next item of anzeljg's :)
09:19:13 <anzeljg> where do you set a plugin to be non-Block?
09:19:28 <anitsirk> anzeljg: i don't think you can do that.
09:19:45 <anzeljg> ok we'll discuss that later, over email or sth...
09:19:46 <aarow_laptop> anzeljg: There's no plugin type for it. So, it's something we'd have to hard-code
09:19:59 <anzeljg> 2. "Cookie directive" plugin, possibly merged into core
09:20:00 <aarow_laptop> ... or invent a plugin type
09:20:12 <anitsirk> #idea "Cookie directive" plugin, possibly merged into core
09:20:12 <anzeljg> The plugin is already implemented, you can see it in action at #link http://listovnik.sio.si (bottom right side of page - "Nastavitev zasebnosti" = "Privacy settings"). It should be noted that plugin works with $cfg->additionalhtmlhead setting, so it only works in Mahara 1.8 or newer.
09:20:19 <anzeljg> Also there is an issue with language support - the language strings are written as a part of javascript which is written to $cfg->additionalhtmlhead setting.
09:20:28 <anzeljg> It is possible for admin to select appropriate language when applaying settings for the plugin, but the language strings don't update dinamically - if the site supports several languages and user dinamically changes the language then that language change is not reflected, the plugin still uses the language that was set in plugin settings in admin area.
09:20:29 <anzeljg> ..
09:20:32 <anitsirk> This gets a high +1 from me because it is necessary for european sites.
09:22:05 <aarow_laptop> anzeljg: If we incorporate it into core, then it won't have to be sent via $cfg->additionalhtmlhead, and that should help resolve the language string issues
09:22:36 <anitsirk> this should be a site admin check box.
09:22:51 <anitsirk> no institution setting necessary because the entire site is affected.
09:23:32 <anzeljg> anitsirk: you've lost me, what should be a site admin check box?
09:23:43 <anzeljg> arrow: nice
09:23:47 <anitsirk> whether to set the cookie directive or not
09:24:15 <anitsirk> the admin shouldn't have to change something on the server, but just tick a box and say whether they require the directive or not
09:24:46 <aarow_laptop> Am I correct in assuming that what this feature does, is implements compatibility with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Privacy_and_Electronic_Communications ?
09:25:00 <rkabalin> #info rkabalin is Ruslan Kabalin, Lancaster University, UK.
09:25:17 <anzeljg> anitsirk: ther'e more to is, since the colors etc. could be dinamically changed and also the consent mode, etc.
09:25:33 <anitsirk> hi rkabalin
09:25:33 <anzeljg> but yes, the for for the admin to set all the stuff
09:25:51 <anzeljg> aarow: yes
09:25:58 <anzeljg> in EU it's mandatory!
09:26:46 <aarow_laptop> (I'm skimming the simpler explanation at http://www.theeucookielaw.com/ )
09:26:48 <anzeljg> sorry: for for = form for ^^^
09:28:21 <aarow_laptop> yep, sounds like something it would be good to include
09:28:57 <anitsirk> anzeljg: will need to read up on how dynamic the colors etc. would have to be. i could imagine to have them in the theme css. but that's a detail discussion for later.
09:29:13 <anzeljg> OK
09:29:14 <aarow_laptop> I imagine a lot of European Mahara sites will be quite happy
09:29:17 <anzeljg> moving on?
09:29:27 <anzeljg> :)
09:29:58 <aarow_laptop> yep
09:29:58 <anzeljg> 3. Social site addresses in user's profile
09:30:08 <anzeljg> Actually the bug #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/605749 contains (in my oppinion) two separate issues.
09:30:12 <anitsirk> #idea Social site addresses in user's profile
09:30:25 <anzeljg> The first one is to add support for social site addresses to user's profile. My idea is to implement it in a sort of the same way that the user's emails are implemented.
09:30:32 <anzeljg> The users will be able to add multiple addresses with a form (or maybe Pieform element) which will offer them a select/drop-down box with XY most used social websites so they will first select a social site/service and than in another textbox type/insert their personal address, e.g. http://twitter.com/johndoe or http://facebook.com/johndoe or http://en.linkedin.com/in/johndoe/
09:30:44 <anzeljg> Second issue is on General tab. "Occupation and Industry do not make a lot of sense, especially when portfolios are used in schools for students. It would be good if the admin could change these labels for an institution."
09:30:52 <anzeljg> The new Europass HeadlineTypeLabelType element contains one value from predefined set of values: preferred_job, job_applied_for, studies_applied_for, position or personal_statement. We could support at least that or also add our own. I'm just not sure how to do that. Any suggestions?
09:30:53 <anzeljg> ..
09:31:50 <aarow_laptop> yes, that Launchpad bug contains basically two separate items
09:31:57 <aarow_laptop> Multiple sources have asked me for the ability to customize the Profile fields, I think it would make a lot of sense
09:32:08 <anitsirk> hello dajan
09:32:09 <anzeljg> dajan hi
09:33:02 <dajan> hi there. Sorry for being (very) late. Was kidnapped in another conf early this morning.
09:33:04 <aarow_laptop> I also suggested customisable profile fields to the Totara team as something they might want to implement, since they've added "custom fields" to nearly everything in Moodle
09:33:56 <aarow_laptop> luckily, we're still going ;)
09:34:27 <aarow_laptop> We're on item 3.3 on the agenda ( https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/Developer_Area/Developer_Meetings/29 )
09:34:46 <anzeljg> actually 3.2.3
09:34:47 <aarow_laptop> so anzeljg, you're mostly focused on doing the first bit of that Launchpad bug, the multiple social site addresses; rather than fully customisable profile fields
09:34:47 <aarow_laptop> ?
09:34:49 <tobiasz> I think there are individual profile fields in moodle (created by the site admin)
09:35:20 <aarow_laptop> oh, right
09:35:21 <aarow_laptop> 3.2.3
09:35:44 <anzeljg> not sure. the social site addresses for sure...
09:35:45 <aarow_laptop> anyway, yes, ideally most of the profile fields would be customizable. The social network fields are kind of embarrassingly out of date at this point, so even just making those more flexible would be great :)
09:36:40 <anitsirk> #info the wishlist item for the social sites in the profile has been updated: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/605749
09:36:40 <aarow_laptop> we'd just need to make sure to have an upgrade script that converts the old-style hard-coded ones into the new-style flexible ones
09:36:46 <anzeljg> and the approach for adding them similarly as emails would work?
09:37:01 <anitsirk> #info there is a new wishlist item for changes to the "General" tab at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mahara/+bug/1258067
09:37:02 <aarow_laptop> Well, presumably without the verification step
09:37:33 <aarow_laptop> but in general, I think re-using the interface from the emails, would probably work
09:37:36 <anzeljg> I menat, the users would select the site/service and enter the address :)
09:37:47 <anitsirk> i think it would be better to just insert the username and then have the system add the rest of the url.
09:38:18 <anzeljg> anitsirk: +1 (I wish I would think about it sooner)
09:38:18 <aarow_laptop> well, I'm of two minds about that
09:38:26 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: why would we need to verify the urls / usernames?
09:38:30 <ghada> wouldn't that make it too complicated?
09:38:31 <aarow_laptop> on the plus side, it's perhaps an easier user experience if we just have them enter the username
09:38:31 <dajan> Note that it is already easy to change the name of the profile field by adding a customized langpack into the local folder
09:38:34 <anitsirk> we don't do that for the other urls that a user can insert
09:39:06 <aarow_laptop> on the down side, if we have them just enter the username and we generate the URL, then we need to include a pre-set list of social networks and the ability to generate their URLs
09:39:15 <anitsirk> dajan: yes, but if a user moves, they are back to the original or some other...
09:39:36 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: true.
09:39:37 <aarow_laptop> or, we could include something similar to the iframe list, and let admins customize the list of social networks
09:40:16 <anzeljg> aarow: i like your last idea
09:40:37 <robertl_> +1 to that idea
09:40:38 <aarow_laptop> have you actually implemented anything on this yet, anzeljg?
09:40:46 <dajan> That's right. Then the process of doing that will imply to save the info with the name of the field into the database.
09:40:59 <anitsirk> it would need to be exportable (like the licenses).
09:41:00 <anzeljg> but what happens when exporting user's portfolio
09:41:24 <anzeljg> aarow: no implementation yet, just a lot of thinking about it...
09:41:40 <anitsirk> anzeljg: look at the license implementation. when you export a portfolio that has license information then that is retained even if the new site doesn't have that license (as far as i know).
09:41:41 <aarow_laptop> oh, okay :)
09:41:42 <aarow_laptop> hm, exporting...
09:42:05 <anzeljg> anitsirk: will do
09:42:06 <aarow_laptop> well, maybe you'd need to have an "Other" option, that lets the user supply the name of the social network and a URL
09:42:20 <anzeljg> aarow: though of that one also :)
09:43:28 <anzeljg> if we have that (that the users could select from list of preentered sites or add their own) then I think we don't need admin interface similar to iframes...
09:44:00 <aarow_laptop> It does make the admin page less necessary
09:44:05 <anzeljg> the site/service should then be written to DB along with the url
09:44:36 <aarow_laptop> the admin page is a kind of future-proofing, in case all the devs are too lazy to keep the list up to date
09:45:00 <anzeljg> I see :)
09:45:18 <dajan> And why not having an interface such as the one we actually use to add files to profile's info. Therfore the user is in charge of creating what he wants in the quantity he wants. He will have a field to choose the service and another one to provide his identity. A plus sign will let him to add a new one a minus sign to delete one. When I am writing "he" I also mean "she"
09:45:55 <anzeljg> that was initial idea (like adding emails)
09:46:30 <anzeljg> but the problem is what if the service is not on the list...
09:46:31 <aarow_laptop> yeah, I think for consistency across the user profile area, making it similar to the Emails interface is good
09:47:02 <anitsirk> but without the verification step i would say.
09:47:09 <anzeljg> of course
09:47:32 <dajan> In your experience: do you think that admin will want to control what kind of services the users will provide info about?
09:47:33 <ghada> will the visiblity of the individual item be granular? or are you going to make all of them visible?  I can't remember what we do with emails now...
09:47:34 <anitsirk> but wouldn't we then have to change the existing site where you ahve the text box for entering usernames?
09:47:38 <sonn_> +1 for emails interface
09:47:58 <anitsirk> ghada: you can decide which item to display and which one not to
09:47:59 <aarow_laptop> Personally, I think it would be good enough to just give users two text fields, one for the name of the social network, and the other for their URL or username
09:48:30 <robertl_> yeah that's what I'm thinking
09:48:33 <dajan> I agree with arron
09:49:03 <anzeljg> so we leave it to users to enter e.g. Twitter or twitter or Facebook or facebook or FB or ...
09:49:23 <anitsirk> then it would have to be the url i would say because users expect to get a link esp. when it's linkedin, twitter etc. they don't want to copy and paste the user name at the end of a url...
09:49:27 <robertl_> and just store it as field1=field2 pairs
09:49:58 <aarow_laptop> there are some antiquated social networks, such as AIM, where you don't have a URL
09:50:30 <aarow_laptop> I guess the downside to making it freetext is that you would get irregularity in the results
09:50:40 <anzeljg> so the description would say: "paste the URL or username"
09:50:49 <tobiasz> what about trying to fetch the site-icon like mahara does with the allowed iframe sources, instead of a name for the network?
09:51:10 <mingard> potential for malicious users to have links to dodgy sites? although the site icon would help with that
09:51:27 <mingard> or do we trust our users/administrators?
09:51:35 <anzeljg> and that again takes us to set of predefined addresses
09:51:38 <anitsirk> mingard: they can enter these already in their blog address ;-)
09:51:48 <mingard> haha ok
09:52:02 <anitsirk> but of course the fields should be XSS safe
09:52:03 <aarow_laptop> well, I guess the advantage to doing something like the iframe page, is that it provides a bit more polish and consistency to the experience. You'd have the admins enter a list of social network sites, potentially define a URL template for each one, and specify whether they want a freetext "Other" option
09:52:31 <anzeljg> nice summary
09:52:36 <anzeljg> +1
09:52:45 <dajan> +1
09:52:46 <ghada> +2
09:52:54 <robertl_> +1
09:52:55 <aarow_laptop> okay anzeljg, see if you can implement it that way ;)
09:52:57 <ghada> ;)
09:53:00 <sonn_> +1
09:53:03 <mingard> +1
09:53:05 <tobiasz> +1
09:53:07 <anzeljg> i'll try
09:53:18 <anzeljg> the last from me...
09:53:24 <dajan> @anzeljg: More work for you my friend
09:53:30 <anzeljg> 4. Adding functionality to place comment/feedback on each individual block on a page
09:53:40 <anzeljg> I was informed that is would be really helpful if users could place comments/feedback on each individual block on page. Sort od like Facebook works (also likes of each individual block would be nice...). I'm just raising that issue here to get your oppinion on that and if there are some plans to implement that...
09:53:47 <anitsirk> #idea for implementing more flexibility for adding (new) social sites: the advantage to doing something like the iframe page, is that it provides a bit more polish and consistency to the experience. You'd have the admins enter a list of social network sites, potentially define a URL template for each one, and specify whether they want a freetext "Other" option
09:53:53 <anzeljg> ..
09:54:04 <anitsirk> #idea
09:54:08 <anitsirk> #idea Adding functionality to place comment/feedback on each individual block on a page
09:54:21 <anitsirk> anzeljg: did you have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1037531 ?
09:54:22 <aarow_laptop> We at Catalyst don't have any plans to implement that just now. Though we did recently implement something that sounds similar but is not ;)
09:54:32 <robertl_> would all blocks need to have feedback?
09:54:38 <anitsirk> we've been discussing this a bit on the wishlist item
09:54:39 <aarow_laptop> robertl implemented a "comment block", which lets you change the location of the comments from the bottom of the page, to a Block on the page
09:54:51 <anzeljg> anitsirk: honestly I didn't...
09:55:11 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: but that is the page feedback and not individual block feedback.
09:55:42 <aarow_laptop> yep
09:55:43 <aarow_laptop> that's why I said it sounds similar but is not actually similar ;)
09:55:53 <anitsirk> many blocks in mahara can already have comments, but that takes you to the details page and there is not always a comment count when you view the portfolio page.
09:55:56 <anzeljg> robertl_ yes. it's not enough to just display comments in a block rather than at the end of page
09:56:28 <aarow_laptop> I guess another thing to note in this discussion, which we're probably already aware of, is that File artefacts already can have their own comments
09:56:41 <anzeljg> it would be nice that the comments could be expanded/viewed under each block
09:56:50 <anitsirk> btw, the comment block aarow_laptop was talking about will be in 1.9. it's a feature sponsored by the new york institute of technology.
09:57:06 <dajan> In my experience of assessing ePortfolios and portfolios, we give feedback on the whole page or document, not block by block. And already we can give comments on the artefacts.
09:57:06 <aarow_laptop> so in the case of a File Block, you'd probably want to display the comment thread for that File artefact
09:57:27 <anzeljg> yes
09:58:01 <anzeljg> dajan: actually I haven't assessed portfolios, that was a suggestion made by others...
09:58:03 <robertl_> for a folder block would you show all  comments for all the files
09:58:08 <robertl_> ?
09:58:38 <anzeljg> robertl_ Have no idea, that's why I've started that conversation anyway... :)
09:58:39 <aarow_laptop> well, that's where it gets tricky
09:58:39 <aarow_laptop> there is not a 1:1 relationship between blocks and artefacts
09:59:00 <anitsirk> we'd have to look at each block type and see where comments would make sense. some internal ones may not be so well suited, but external blocks should have comments. sometimes you may want to comment on an embedded video.
09:59:01 <aarow_laptop> in fact, very few blocks do represent one artefact. I think the File Block is more an exception than the rule
09:59:18 <sonn_> What will happen to comments of shared text box?
09:59:50 <aarow_laptop> I think from an implementation standpoint, it would also require some DB changes to let comments "belong" to a block
09:59:51 <mingard> might be confusing for users to have comments on some blocks and not others (not knowing how it works behind the scenes)
10:00:00 <anzeljg> yes, yes and yes. Will try to explain that to people that suggested that.
10:00:07 <anitsirk> sonn_: i think they should be seen by anyone viewing the text box like for journal entries. i don't know of the top of my head if that is not already the case.
10:00:08 <robertl_> and comments with attachments
10:00:17 <robertl_> that can have comments
10:00:18 <anzeljg> And personally I agree that comments on the end of page should be enough
10:00:34 <anzeljg> :)
10:00:57 <anitsirk> anzeljg: take a look at the wishlist item. gordon and don had some good thoughts. would be great if you added yours / the ones of your users to that to continue the discussion.
10:00:57 <aarow_laptop> well, a Text Box is one of the block types where the block represents one Artefact
10:00:59 <ghada> I agree. Otherwise, it's too cluttered
10:01:32 <anzeljg> anitsirk: will do (the bug you've mentioned earlier?)
10:02:03 <aarow_laptop> I think what anitsirk said about looking at it separately for each block type would be the way to go. If we added this feature, it would need to be something that would be optionally turned on for each block type. Like, adding a "supports_comments()" method to the Blocktype class, which returns false by default
10:02:18 <anitsirk> i think it is good to be able to comment on individual artefacts. some users have 100 different ones on a page and then the feedback at the bottom is not enough esp. when we don't have a history of a page revision. but it's not good that the comments are often not visible, i.e. often you don't know that an artefact has a commen unless you really click on it.
10:02:25 <anitsirk> anzeljg: yep: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1037531
10:02:32 <dajan> I just want to give you an insight on how we do to assess portfolios in Mahara or within other platforms (sorry but sometimes I have to be a cheater). First we give feedback on artefacts when we help the users to build their portfolio. We help them to link their artefacts with skills using the tags function. These comments are general and help the users to build something coherent and personal. Then when the pages are shared we assess or comment on how the
10:02:33 <dajan> users explain the achievement of the LO (Learning Outcomes) or how they have shown the attainment of the goals, the acquisition of skills.
10:03:04 <aarow_laptop> and it would need to be configurable in each block instance, like how we let users disable comments for each Page and artefact
10:03:52 <sonn_> I am off now, will see the minute tomorrow. My son needs me
10:04:23 <aarow_laptop> see you tomorrow, sonn_
10:04:30 <anitsirk> bye, sonn_
10:04:32 <sonn_> bye
10:04:36 <anzeljg> dajan: I've programmed a custom plugin for that, called "My Learnigs" or Learnings where users set their goals, reflect upon Learnign Outcomes, etc. It was in part intended for EUfolio project (http://eufolio.eu)
10:04:36 <robertl_> see ya sonn_
10:04:41 <dajan> see you sonn
10:04:45 <mingard> bye sonn_
10:04:58 <aarow_laptop> you know, maybe a way to expose the comment threads of individual artefacts, from, say, the "Files to Download" block, would be handy
10:05:05 <anzeljg> bye sonn
10:05:37 <aarow_laptop> a little speech bubble icon that indicates it has 3 comments, and you click on it and it expands into a comments thread...
10:06:12 <robertl_> yeah - having them hidden first thenshowing them if needed would be the way to go
10:06:13 <anzeljg> aarow: like the idea
10:06:53 <dajan> Yes, but the comments you make on an artefact are often non relevant when the latter is put into a context of a page.
10:07:05 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: like this: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/112828955/artefact_feedback.png ?
10:07:16 <anitsirk> pardon my bad mock-ups. evonne makes much nicer ones. ;-)
10:07:17 <aarow_laptop> ah, that's true in the case you've described, dajan
10:07:48 <aarow_laptop> and also considering that artefacts can be used across multiple pages
10:08:08 <anitsirk> dajan: but that shouldn't mean that it should be burried i think. it can reveal the initial thinking and also show progress / or not progression that the learner has taken
10:08:08 <aarow_laptop> I'm sure that if you could look at the artefact comment thread from within the page, users would make page-specific comments, which would then show up on another page and make no sense
10:08:08 <dajan> It is what I meant by "context"
10:08:09 <robertl_> also would need to take into account space on page - if you had 5 cols it might be hard to read comments
10:09:02 <robertl_> if they were all squished up
10:09:06 <dajan> In that case comments have to be put into popups
10:09:38 <aarow_laptop> anitsirk: Yes, if we were to have expandable comment subthreads, I'd envision them looking something like your mockup
10:09:38 <aarow_laptop> Moodle 2 actually hase some quite nice comment popups :)
10:10:10 <aarow_laptop> and a really keen API that makes it easy to add a comment thread to anything
10:10:34 <anitsirk> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1037531 for additional information from other users for comment / feedback improvements
10:10:34 <aarow_laptop> don't know how well it would integrate with our current system of storing comments as Artefacts ...
10:10:35 <aarow_laptop> maybe just the Javascript part of it
10:10:36 <dajan> If we implement this, I think that tutors will want to provide general feedbacks on artefacts which are relevant in the whole portfolios and specific and contextualized feedbacks on the artifact on a specific page. Not easy to code this.
10:11:08 <aarow_laptop> yes
10:11:08 <aarow_laptop> for purposes of context, tying comment threads to Blocks actually does make more sense
10:11:40 <aarow_laptop> a Block only lives in exactly one page
10:12:11 <aarow_laptop> although the current system of just having one comment thread per page also helps to fix the context ;)
10:12:27 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: not when it's a text box that can be re-used or a journal entry etc. unless you argue that it's a separate block because it can have a different heading and is in a different page.
10:12:58 <aarow_laptop> Yes, a Text Box Block is only on one page. But it displays a Note artefact, which can be displayed in several Text Box blocks
10:13:29 <aarow_laptop> Blog entries are trickier...
10:14:01 <aarow_laptop> Well, any further thoughts on this subject?
10:14:30 <anitsirk> not at the moment.
10:14:45 <anzeljg> no
10:14:55 <dajan> I think you should discuss with tutors and people who assess ePortfolio with Mahara to see what they really need there.
10:15:04 <mingard> agreed, sounds like it needs more thought generally
10:15:20 <ghada> agreed.
10:15:31 <dajan> I can make a little survey here in UK France and Switzerland if you want
10:15:56 <anzeljg> can you send me the survey question to pass it to my users dajan?
10:16:08 <anitsirk> dajan: would be good to post them on the forums as well
10:16:20 <dajan> I was more thinking about a focus group (online or f2f).
10:16:20 <aarow_laptop> I'll note that in the minutes then, shall I?
10:17:22 <aarow_laptop> #action dajan to gather some information from tutors and ePortfolio assessors to find out their needs in this area
10:17:31 <dajan> What is the deadline because we are arriving in a period of calm wit Xmas
10:18:03 <aarow_laptop> Well, the 1.9 feature freeze is in February
10:18:21 <anitsirk> first week of feb
10:18:21 <aarow_laptop> so if anzeljg wanted to get something in for 1.9, it'd need to be before then
10:18:34 <dajan> Short
10:19:06 <anitsirk> #info robertl updated the release schedule at https://wiki.mahara.org/index.php/6MonthlyCycle
10:19:10 <dajan> I will do my best for Januray
10:19:13 <anzeljg> aarow: noted that. this will be busy Xmas holidays...
10:19:29 <anitsirk> there is always the october release. :-)
10:19:36 <anzeljg> he he he...
10:20:08 <aarow_laptop> Yes, there's always 1.10
10:20:23 <anzeljg> I though it will be 2.0 ;)
10:20:23 <aarow_laptop> okay, anything else on this topic?
10:20:28 <anitsirk> nope
10:20:34 <anzeljg> not from me
10:20:34 <aarow_laptop> We can discuss that at the next meeting ;)
10:21:06 <aarow_laptop> so that brings us to...
10:21:06 <aarow_laptop> #topic Next meeting & chair
10:21:07 <aarow_laptop> When shall we hold the next meeting?
10:21:25 <anzeljg> I think in January, before feature freeze
10:21:41 <robertl_> mid/late jan sounds good
10:21:57 <mingard> sounds good to me
10:21:58 <aarow_laptop> Jan 12?
10:22:03 <anzeljg> later
10:22:13 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: sunday?
10:22:13 <aarow_laptop> or is the 19th better?
10:22:26 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: why are you going for sundays?
10:22:48 <anzeljg> 16th or 23rd?
10:22:49 <aarow_laptop> Sorry, my calendar keeps closing
10:22:49 <aarow_laptop> I was looking at December by accident
10:22:50 <aarow_laptop> 23rd? That's a Thursday
10:22:56 <dajan> In France they want to put into the Law the right to make people work on Sunday
10:23:03 <anitsirk> ah that explains it. :-)
10:23:19 <anzeljg> well today is thursday also :)
10:23:33 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: i think we have a question at hand from dobedobedoh.
10:23:34 <anzeljg> 22nd then?
10:24:01 <anitsirk> if we stick to our early nz / utc time, then perth can't participate in january because that'll be at an ungodly hour as it might be 8 a.m. NZ time
10:24:29 <dajan> Wednesdays are always busy but deepening on the time I would maybe show up during the meeting
10:24:29 <aarow_laptop> right
10:24:57 <anzeljg> 21 UTC?
10:25:10 <anitsirk> dajan: this time it would be our turn for early morning which would be evening for you unless we find a better time to accommodate dobedobedoh
10:25:31 <dajan> Fine by me.
10:25:42 <dajan> I will bring your the croissants
10:25:56 <anzeljg> and french toast?
10:26:05 <anzeljg> :)
10:26:28 <dajan> I don't think so, I am Brit and Swiss. Not French. But for you I will and add some marmelade
10:26:50 <anzeljg> ;)
10:26:50 <aarow_laptop> I think we'd need to do 23:00 or 0:00 to accommodate Perth
10:26:52 <dajan> And a bircher muesli
10:27:05 <rkabalin> heh, or Marmite
10:27:06 <aarow_laptop> but that would make it midnight in Europe
10:27:21 <anzeljg> that's quite late :(
10:27:45 <dajan> Fine by me. I don't go to bed before one or two. And once in the month that's ok
10:27:57 <rkabalin> 21 UTC fine with me
10:28:29 <aarow_laptop> Why does Moodle HQ have to be in *Western* Australia :-P
10:28:32 <anzeljg> Is UTC 21 equal to 22:00 in Europe or 23:00?
10:28:41 <anitsirk> 22:00
10:29:01 <anzeljg> thanks, that's what I thought
10:29:02 <anitsirk> at the moment i think because you are on winter time
10:29:10 <anzeljg> yep
10:29:43 <anitsirk> right now is 10:30 UTC, but 11:30 p.m. NZ and 11:40 a.m. continental europe
10:29:53 <anitsirk> or rather 11:30 a.m. ;-)
10:30:08 <dajan> So I have to leave you now I have another webminar with ALT on ePortfolio. Must go.
10:30:15 <anzeljg> I might come if we start at 23:00, starting at 0:00 is a bit late for me...
10:30:17 <anitsirk> bye dajan
10:30:20 <dajan> Will rea the chat notes tomorrow
10:30:24 <anzeljg> bye dajan
10:30:26 <dajan> bye
10:31:01 <ghada> I have to head out too. see you online...
10:31:12 <anitsirk> have a nice evening, ghada
10:31:13 <aarow_laptop> Since Perth is UTC+8, it's not possible to accommodate a sensible Perth morning time and a sensible European evening time
10:31:16 <robertl_> see ya ghada
10:31:20 <ghada> thanks for including me!
10:31:21 <aarow_laptop> See you guys. We'll post the next dev meeting time on the forums
10:31:29 <ghada> bye...
10:31:42 <anzeljg> what if we do it again Perth evening / Europe morning?
10:31:43 <aarow_laptop> thanks for showing up
10:31:55 <aarow_laptop> we could do that
10:32:25 <anitsirk> fine by me. we used to alternate so that everyone had a very early morning, but right now, we aren't on such an early morning for you in europe, are we?
10:32:25 <aarow_laptop> if we're trying to include people in NZ, Australi, and Europe, sticking with this time makes the most sense
10:32:57 <aarow_laptop> so long as no one from the US wants to join us... ;)
10:32:58 <anzeljg> at 9 a.m. in Europe, so it's fine
10:33:30 <tobiasz> same here, 9 am is very convenient
10:33:31 <aarow_laptop> okay, so 23 Jan 8:00 UTC
10:33:40 <anzeljg> +1
10:33:45 <mingard> +1
10:33:49 <anitsirk> +1
10:33:51 <tobiasz> +1
10:34:00 <robertl_> +1
10:34:24 <anitsirk> who wants to chair?
10:34:38 <anzeljg> I can
10:34:45 <anitsirk> cool. thanks, anzeljg
10:35:07 <anitsirk> for those new here: we try to rotate the chair every time. that also helps everyone to learn the commands for writing the minutes :-)
10:35:08 <aarow_laptop> sounds good
10:35:12 <rkabalin> +1
10:35:31 <mingard> cool, +1
10:35:32 <aarow_laptop> ooh, this'll be the historic 30th dev meeting
10:35:42 <anzeljg> even nicer...
10:36:13 <anitsirk> #info anzeljg will chair the 40th Mahara developer meeting on 23 January at 8:00 UTC. See http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=30th+Mahara+dev+meeting&iso=20130123T08 for the time zone conversion
10:36:24 <anitsirk> oh shoot. i meant to write 30th
10:36:30 <anzeljg> wasn't it 30th a second ago?
10:36:32 <anitsirk> sorry for getting my numbers mixed up today
10:36:40 <anzeljg> undo
10:37:01 <anitsirk> aarow_laptop: can you please try to undo? only the chair can, but i don't know if it works for info
10:37:31 <anitsirk> #info corrected: anzeljg will chair the 30th Mahara developer meeting on 23 January at 8:00 UTC. See http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=30th+Mahara+dev+meeting&iso=20130123T08 for the time zone conversion
10:37:32 <aarow_laptop> #undo
10:37:32 <maharameet> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2c55210>
10:38:03 <aarow_laptop> And lastly, any other business?
10:38:17 <anitsirk> yes. 1 short one
10:38:28 <anzeljg> aarow: I think you've undone the corrected info
10:40:01 <aarow_laptop> well, it's not a huge typo
10:40:20 <anzeljg> :)
10:40:24 <anzeljg> anitsirk: go on
10:40:28 <anitsirk> #info the deadline for the next mahara newsletter will be 24 december 2013. if you have an article to include, please send the 100-150 words to newsletter@mahara.org
10:40:38 <anitsirk> that's all.
10:41:04 <anzeljg> anitsirk: i see you'll also have busy xmas holidays...
10:41:11 <anitsirk> ;-)
10:41:51 <anitsirk> anybody else?
10:41:57 <anzeljg> nope
10:42:00 <robertl_> nothing from me
10:42:00 <anitsirk> as in "any other business"?
10:42:26 <mingard> nor from me
10:42:57 <aarow_laptop> okay, adjourning this meeting then
10:43:29 <aarow_laptop> If anyone has any other business you've forgotten, as always feel free to post it on the forums, bring it up here on IRC, and/or put it on the agenda for the next meeting. :)
10:43:29 <aarow_laptop> #endmeeting